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Fidelity and chastity; ordination standards Words have meaning December 31, 2001 "Chaste" means "chaste." What a concept those brothers and former GA commissioners have introduced us to: Words have meaning; they are not mere empty vessels into which we can pour our own content and then view the resultant freight through the lens of our own experience. That is quite a revelation, I'm sure, to the majority of our leaders who are "Nike Presbyterians," Presbyterians with a new credo as old as Judges 21:25. In the vernacular, "do your own thing" or "just do it." What amazes me, unburdened as I am by a seminary education and having learned "homiletics" by a different name in law school, is the willingness of our post-modern leadership to dig around in archeological arcana in order to assure us, for example, that the lesson of Sodom is the sin of inhospitality, but their absolute refusal to use common techniques of statutory construction seeking legislative intent when coming up with misguidance like Polity Reflection 19. Where is the evidence of digging around in the available records of the GA and its constituent bodies to learn as Rev. Worth and Elder Buettler knew all along, that "chaste" means "chaste?" Our leaders exhort us with bumper-sticker wisdom, apparently believing that we no longer have the attention span to read our constitution for ourselves, or understand that our constitution consists of two parts, of which the Book of Order does not come first. These leaders act as if they think we are unaware that, in quoting their favorite part of the Westminster Confession, they ignore the context and therefore intentionally alter the meaning in their repeated shibbolethic use of "God Alone is Lord of the conscience." Polity Reflection 19 is not a reflection of our constitution but of Judges 21:25, of the relativism apparently rampant there. If each presbytery can – consistent with our constitution – decide on what our constitution means, in whole or in part, then we do not have a constitution in any commonly understood use of that word, and the fact that it is written is then of no significance whatsoever. Our constitution, if it means anything, describes, prescribes and proscribes the elemental parts that together tell us who we are, not as brothers and sisters in Christ, but as fellow presbyters in the PCUSA. To the extent – and I fear that extent is great – our leaders allow our Constitution to mean whatever the reader or non-reader of it wants it to mean, then they are contributing mightily to the high noon of the post-denominational age. We as PCUSAers are what our constitution says we are. Not what I say we are, or you say we are, or what Kathleen Morrison and Wayne Osborne say we are. We are what our constitution says we are as Presbyterians in the PCUSA. Thank you, Layman, and thank you, Brothers Buettler and Worth for your ongoing efforts to bring us back to the foundations of our faith and our PCUSA understanding of it as set forth in our written constitution. Derek Simmons, elder First Presbyterian Church A Confessing Church Santa Rosa, Calif. Another step toward schism October 1, 2001 Just read about the Morrison ordination by Redwoods Presbytery: another step on the road to schism. John Beard Atlanta, Ga. Call it what it is: idolatry October 1, 2001 From a theological standpoint this is a simple concept, but represents a far greater issue than just the acceptance of homosexuality. When God created man in his image, it was called creation. When man creates God in his image it is called idolatry. When perversion of Scripture is used to create a new god the condition is little different from the man who goes into the woods to chop down a tree and makes his own god. It is time that we start calling it idolatry, and stop pussy-footing around. If we speak the truth in love and with as much tact as possible and offend and thereby lose people this must be acceptable. As was said in the Bible, "if they were for us, they would not have left us." Also Gideon accomplished far more with a few hundred then he would have with his original tens of thousands. We have lost members because we have pussy-footed around. We have lost the Biblical perspective of who you should offend when you have a choice between a believer and non-believer. John Merkel Beaverton, Ore. Presbytery is clearly out of order October 1, 2001 I have read about a presbytery voting to ordain a professing, unrepentant homosexual woman to the Presbyterian Gospel ministry. This presbytery is clearly out of order and it must be so recognized and called to repentance. The implications are so far reaching as to further divide the denomination more. When are Christians going to recognize for once and all that homosexual practice is simply fornication? To recognize and accept homosexuality is to approve fornication in all its forms. Behind this issue is obviously the Biblical authority to condemn fornication as sin which is not acceptable in the church. Is the Bible our standard or contemporary standards and life-styles? The Presbyterian Church (USA) must decide which way we are going. We cannot have it both ways. Let's use the "F" word clearly when we talk about homosexuality, or the vague term "gay." We are talking about sexual relations outside of God ordained marriage. All forms of fornication are sin and not permissible for members, officers members or employees of the Presbyterian Church (USA). That's all there is to it. Lets say it simply and clearly. Rev. James Vincent Loveland, Colo. Some seek to conform church to the world October 1, 2001 The moderator of the 213th General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (USA), the Rev. Dr. Jack B. Rogers, claimed that two thirds of the mail he receives as moderator are from "people who are very angry with the church." Dr. Rogers made the fallacious assumption that the 213th General Assembly can be identified with the church. The Presbyterian Church (USA) has been placed by the Lord in the midst of a perverse and wicked culture. Specifically referring to situations such as ours, the Apostle Paul wrote, "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God." (Rom. 12.2 NKJV) Yet there is a sizeable contingent in the church but not of it that seeks precisely to conform the Presbyterian Church (USA) to the world. The majority of commissioners to the 213th General Assembly and their moderator would seem to be a part of this contingent. Num. 25 records an act of apostasy on the people of God. "The people began to commit harlotry with the women of Moab. They invited the people to the sacrifices of their gods, and the people ate and bowed down to their gods. So Israel was joined to Baal of Peor, and the anger of the LORD was aroused against Israel." (vv. 1-3) The following verses recount one of the Israelites offering to his fellow Israelites a Midianite woman, and they desecrated the Tabernacle of Meeting with acts of fornication. In like manner, the aforementioned contingent in the Presbyterian Church(USA) seeks to loosen our denomination's standards of sexual morality, and to seek to recognize Baal worship in our culture as legitimate. Our perverse and wicked culture tells us, contrary to the plain and unmistakable Word of God (Dr. Rogers' complaint that there are no clear and unambiguous statements in Scripture notwithstanding), that adultery, fornication, homosexual practice, bisexuality, and other detestable forms of sexual immorality are legitimate matters of individual choice and are predicated upon one's "sexual orientation." This contingent would have us shut our ears against the small, still voice of Scripture and listen instead to the siren call of culture, just as the Israelites in Num. 25 listened to the Moabites and Midianites, thereby bringing upon themselves the just condemnation of God. This same contingent would have us believe that it is humility to confess that we do not know whether or not God has made any provision for those outside the pale of the Church, particularly for the adherents of different religions, to be saved from God's righteous judgment for their sins. But the only provision the Lord has made for anyone to be saved is through his Son. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ upon the cross is the only propitiation by which fallen men and women (and we are all fallen men and women) can be reconciled to God, and it exclusively through faith and trust in his atoning death and subsequent bodily resurrection that anyone can be delivered from the power of sin and death. So then, to correct Dr. Rogers' perception, it is not the church that the letter writers are "very angry" with. It is rather this sizable contingent that commits the error of Balaam, seeking to make the Presbyterian Church (USA) more "tolerant" of "sexual diversity" in the church and seeking to make the Presbyterian Church (USA) recognize the worship of other gods as legitimate. Do not mistake me. For those who have committed sexual sin -- or any sin for that matter -- Jesus stands waiting with open arms to welcome, heal, cleanse, and forgive, that they too may experience the grace of salvation that comes exclusively through Jesus Christ. But for those who insist on diluting the Biblical standards for sexual morality and who insist on depreciating Christ's work on the cross, he who is called faithful and true is mounted on a white horse with a sharp sword going out of his mouth to judge and make war (Rev. 19.11-16). Loren J. Golden Overland Park, Kan. Liberals miss point on so-called exclusion Re: Pastor: Ordination standard has 'dehumanizing' effect May 26, 2000 Once again, confusion reigns, or seems to. In the case of Northern New England defending its member church, Christ Church, the church's pastor says the denomination's stance on homosexuals is demeaning and harmful to Christ Church's members, many of whom are gay. But as usual with liberals, much of the point is missed. No one is claiming these men and women cannot be members. It is that they may not be officers, a distinction seemingly lost in all the usual hoopla about "excluding" some people. Dr. Stephen H. Janssen Eastminster Presbyterian Church Marietta, GA Denomination concerned with 'inclusiveness,' not sin Re: Pastor: Ordination standard has 'dehumanizing' effect May 26, 2000 I am disturbed! I am disturbed because I belong to a nominally Christian denomination that is so concerned with "inclusiveness" that it seems unable to deal with the fact of sin – so afraid to lose members that the only social movement viewed with caution is evangelical Christianity. It seems clear that the upcoming GA will expend disproportionate emotional and spiritual energy dealing with issues relating to diversity: homosexual "unions," ordination standards, and the unwillingness of individual congregations to abide by church law. Witness the comments by Rev. Rebecca Strader in the Layman article about Christ Presbyterian Church in Burlington, Vermont. She said the ordination standard has already had a harmful effect because some homosexuals are "closeted" and "filled with self-loathing because of the judgment of church or society. We have said goodbye to some who believe they can no longer stay loyal to the denomination or even to the Christian faith." Would these members be leaving if she had told them God loves them in spite of their sin, and would forgive them if they confessed and repented? Some might not, but, because this and other churches are afraid to call sin "sin," we must again fight the same old battles. Let's get it straight: "Diversity" in the church has to do with our diverse backgrounds. That is a strength, because an African-American brother can help me to better understand how to witness to the black community and vice-versa. The same dynamic applies for Hispanic, Asian, American Indian, and all other brothers and sisters. But we all must first agree on the basics: the absolute character of God's Law, man's sin nature, God's grace, and the salvation available only under Christ's blood. Diversity in the church is NOT declaring certain sins (e.g., homosexuality, abortion) exceptions to God's laws and officially condoning them by providing special status. Diversity is NOT passively condoning pagan rites (e.g., Gaia worship) during our denomination's annual legislative meetings. Diversity is NOT officially sponsoring heretical conferences, like ReImagining. Finally, the PCUSA needs to understand that the reason it is losing members at a hemhorrhagic rate is not because it isn't user-friendly enough, but because our once evangelical denomination now seems to stand for everything except God's revealed Word. Gary Loftis Markham Woods Presbyterian Church Lake Mary, FL Calvinism is not 'legalistic' theology Re: New Yorkers go to mat for church control January 27, 2000 Regarding Barbara Wheeler's comments recorded in the Layman's article, "New Yorkers go to mat for church control:"
Is God blessing church, presbytery despite decline? Re: Palo Alto congregation co-sponsors series supporting homosexuals January 27, 2000 After reading your article on the Internet regarding the support being given to homosexuals by First Presbyterian Church of Palo Alto, I looked up some statistics to see how successful this church and the Presbytery of San Jose are in bringing people to Christ. Between 1980 and 1996 the population of San Jose grew from 1,295,000 to 1,600,000 for a 24 percent increase. Between 1980 and 1996, the membership of the San Jose Presbytery dropped from 15,094 to 12,731 for a 16 percent decline. Between 1980 and 1996, the membership of First Presbyterian Church of Palo Alto dropped from 374 to 301 for a 20-percent decline. It does not appear that God is blessing this presbytery or this church. Less than 1 percent of the population of San Jose is Presbyterian. George L. Wilson, Pittsburgh, Pa. Elders should use prayers, not polls Re: Businessman, 88, challenges leadership on ordination, endowment control January 17, 2000 With regard to a recent article called "Lawyer, 88, challenges leadership on ordination, endowment control," it sounds like Mr. Grant should be commended for an obvious commitment to ministry and his helpful spirit. However, perhaps he, as well as many others whom I notice in the area of publishing, would do better to do ministry rather than publish things without having to touch another person. I would suggest that before making the rounds with a petition or writing strongly worded articles, our ordained elders should make the rounds and pray with people. In fact, isn't ministry a part of their calling? If half as many who were polled were praying with Mr. Grant instead, that church would be jumping with God's moving transforming presence. This is my challenge . . . instead of looking side to side, writing, arguing, debating, let's do some MINISTRY for God's sake. Andy Byrne, Master of divinity student, Pittsburgh Theological Seminary Jesus didn't use polls to make his decisions Re: Businessman, 88, challenges leadership on ordination, endowment control January 17, 2000 I can think of no place where Jesus made a decision based on polling or where he based his ministry or teaching on a poll. Prayer, study and service seem to me to be the path to discovering God's will for us and God's church, not conducting polls. Jim Dearner, Oklahoma City Stamford division indicative of PCUSA Re: Businessman, 88, challenges leadership on ordination, endowment control January 17, 2000 The division in the Stamford Church is very indicative of the split at the heart of our National Church[PCUSA]. It appears that we are witnessing the prophetic words of Christ that "He did not come to bring peace,but a sword." Christ is divisive! He will not allow us to be at peace with Him and with the world at the same time. A spirit of the world has invaded our once great Presbyterian Church and each member must decide whom it is that he or she will follow. Christ and the Holy Spirit beckon one way, but the Devil, the culture, and a spirit of the world would call us back to our sinful past and pagan natures. The trend away from Godliness within the hierarchy of our denomination suggests that the problem will only get worse. Thanks be to God, He will ensure the perseverance of His elect. Larry Froistad, Rapid City, S.D. Go get them, Ben Re: Businessman, 88, challenges leadership on ordination, endowment control January 17, 2000 I totally agree with Mr. Grant. Go get them, Ben. Bob Wardrop, Inverness, Fla Standards for candidates Re: Homosexual candidacy argued in West Jersey Presbytery case November 16, 1999 Seems as though we need to go to work on Book of Order standards for candidates! Lila Harn, Monroe City, MO Layman's rhetoric is inflammatory Re: Anglican sexual abuse case confirms liability issue raised by Layman October 12, 1999 It is rather amazing the level of inflammatory rhetoric The Presbyterian Layman is willing to engage in for the sake of demonizing a group of faithful brothers and sisters in Christ. Using The Layman's logic of forbidding ordination of those of a certain sexual orientation to prevent monetary liability in case of sexual abuse, the PCUSA should seriously consider banning from ordination self-affirming, practicing, unrepentant heterosexuals, as the majority of clergy sexual abuse cases involve heterosexual ministers. To suggest that homosexual people are more likely to be sexual predators than heterosexual people is not only offensive, it's downright wrong, inaccurate, misleading, and an egregiously sinful lie. To do so in the name of Christ is just plain sickening. Patrick Evans, Minister of Music, Hanover Street Presbyterian Church, Wilmington, Del. Story about liability issue was misleading October 12, 1999 The article entitled "Anglican sexual abuse case confirms liability issue raised by Layman" in your October 7, 1999 online edition is highly misleading about the case involved and the legal principal outlined by the Supreme Court in British Columbia, a mid-level court in the British Columbia court system. The case Mowatt v. Clarke involved the sexual abuse of a child at the St. George's Indian Residential School in Lytton, British Columbia, a ministry of the Anglican Church of Canada. During the course of Mr. Mowatt's stay there, a staff member abused him and other children. When the leadership of the school was made aware of this abuse, the staff member was given the option of resigning. The incident was not properly reported to the parents or the civil authorities. In essence, the school attempted to cover up the case. The court ruling is available online at http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/jdb-txt/sc/99/13/s99-1341.txt. This document makes sad reading in how not to handle any case of reported sexual misconduct within a church organization. Other allegations are alluded to of both heterosexual and homosexual misconduct and there are well over 60 such allegations outstanding against the Anglican and Catholic Churches in British Columbia alone. The key lesson is that sexual abuse must be dealt with directly and appropriately, whether it is heterosexual or homosexual. The Presbyterian Church is making strides in this area, but we still make many of the mistakes outlined in this case. Also within this document is the legal definition of vicarious liability that was applied to this case. The court makes clear that the church was liable because it created a situation where "risk" was introduced. In this situation children would be physically touched by a caretaker, therefore any inappropriate sexual contact makes the church liable because the risk was introduced by the nature of the job. No one argues that the church would sanction such inappropriate behavior and the courts did not allow that as a defense by the church. Another example where one might apply this logic in making a church liable would be in a situation involving pastoral counseling where inappropriate sexual behavior arises (such as an affair). The court is clear that just because the behavior is counter to the desires or expectations of the church, it is not absolved from liability. It is the creation of "risk" that is the issue. I am disappointed that The Layman would use a partial reporting of this story to argue against ordination of homosexuals (not an issue in this case) and neglect to outline the overall implications regarding liability risk for the church in many of its ministries – pastoral counseling, childcare, education, etc. Alan Belch, Elder, Cary Presbyterian Church, Raleigh, NC 27612 Battle over homosexuality: Is it about money, property? September 29, 1999 Why a church has to battle the issue of homosexuality is so perverse that it shocks any Christian conscience. Sex outside the marriage bed is evil as Scripture makes abundantly clear. And God's call is always toward holiness. Homosexuality is made more malignant because it is also unnatural and unhealthy. Repentance is the only remedy. After much thought, I think this battle is really about money and property. Who will control the immense wealth of the church? I would certainly like to see others speak to this issue. Mark McNeil, Albuquerque, NM It's time to be 'God-correct' August 17, 1999 An old Georgia country preacher once said, "You can't split a rotten log." The PCUSA found this out in the 1970s when the PCA came into being. I am greatly troubled about the lack of concern over what God says in his word rather that what man (with a little m) thinks or feels. It would appear that the Presbyterian Church is split 49/51 over the gay issue of ordination, and I'm just a wee bit irritated with this whole concept of voices of Sophia and ReImagining god (with a little g )! If the church does not take a stand for what God makes clear in his Word then the words "because you were neither hot nor cold I will spit you out of my mouth" will be heard again. When you hear thunder do not fall asleep under that big oak tree! Judgment begins at the house of the Lord (with a big L)! The leadership of the church needs to be more concerned with "God correct" vs. "politically correct." David D. Sutton, First Presbyterian Church, Atlanta, GA Church's Obsession with Sex July 8, 1999 One of my favorite though apocryphal gender-bigoted stories comes from the garden. According to scrolls discovered nowhere near Qumran, Adam complained to God, "The animals are great but I just can't seem to warm up to any of them." So God created Eve as Adam's partner and the formerly lonely fellow exclaimed, "Now that's more like it!" Adam didn't need much prompting to be fruitful and multiply and start the species. It wasn't too long before God found Adam sitting on a tree stump with a puzzled look on his face. Sensing God's presence without theophany, Adam asked for succeeding generations of his gender, "Lord, what is a headache?" God knows and few would dispute sex as a paralyzing obsession of the church as well as society. It has become a constant headache; distracting the church from its primary mission to honor God by sharing the unconditional love of Jesus with everyone. While there are enough inappropriate heterosexual hang-ups and hangovers to keep the church busy, the biggest headache has been homosexuality. While most Christians understand human behaviors within the context of original sin - the inherent instinct to rebel against God's standards of faith and morality - and therefore aren't surprised or stressed out by natural actions antithetical to Biblical revelation, our hysterical friends from the left and right continue to demonize each other and destroy the church in their wake. Coupled with the rest of the church's apathy or impotency to do anything to check their navel-gazing apoplexy, it can be concluded the church's obsession with sex thinly veils its thanatos libido. Whether it's Angela Davis or Jane Spahr or a legion of inane, inappropriate, and often apostate issue-oriented obsessions, the church is like a Cub Scout paging through Playboy. It's clearly wrong but can't be stopped. My answer is simple. Stop talking about sex and start talking and listening to God! Or to put it another way, sometimes it's better to talk to God about some people than to talk to some people about God. Rev. Dr. Robert R. Kopp Let's change directions July 8, 1999 When will we get the time and treasure consuming attack on fidelity and chastity off our backs so we can do Christ's Great Commission with all our energy and resources? Surely the handful of gay persons desirous of leadership of other Christians can use their large financial resources to find other outlets for their talents. In truth, they want a Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval and will continue to force us to spend time and money studying them while the mission of the Church languishes. Dick Dyer Live in the light July 8, 1999 On the second Friday night of General Assembly (June 25) I was in a moment of intense worship at a local church renewal service. I sensed the Lord saying something to me that I am to tell my evangelical brothers and sisters in the Renewal Network. Do not fear the 2 years of dialog (on gay ordination). Proclaim God's Word and stand in his truth in all integrity and in demonstration of the Holy Spirit and power (2 Corinthians 2:4-5). As we in the Presbyterian Renewal Network demonstrate God's grace and truth in the power of the Holy Spirit to our people, they will follow. We do not need to fear dialog if our lives and ministries bear the real fruit of Jesus Christ. The people will see and follow. The Milwaukee Overture was not about ordination standards and human rights but about our own people walking in great darkness, crying out in pain because they cannot see God. And they cannot see God because we are not showing them God. Our job is not to work to decrease the darkness. No, we are called to live like Jesus, the Light of the world, in all holiness and power, in total submission to the will of the Father. Allen Kemp, Suffern Presbyterian Church, Suffern, NY Divisiveness not all bad June 25, 1999 Kathy Runyeon is quoted on the PCUSA site as saying the committee went forward because the fidelity and chastity language was causing "divisiveness." Divisiveness is not a bad thing when the church is adhering to God's Word. Christ effectively created this division: sheep and goats. There is absolute right, and that right is contained in Scripture. Have Presbyterians succumbed to the temptation that they can divine God's will by majority vote? If we cannot agree to accept God's Word, then let us divide! Gary Loftis, Markham Woods Presbyterian Church, Lake Mary, Fla. Thanks for call to prayer June 25, 1999 Thank you for your Call to Prayer. The General Assembly has been getting mine, and will continue. I have observed, with heavy heart, another assault by the forces of darkness on our denomination and the efforts to conform to Scripture. While I understand that we are not all exactly the same, I do not understand how so many (who also are well-organized and have strong voices) allow themselves to be blinded by Satan when God's truth in Scripture is plain. Yes, we are called to love one another and be tolerant and supportive of all, but we are also called to do our best, under Jesus' loving care, to live according to all of God's standards in the Bible, in loving and obedient response to a loving God. I pray that the Commissioners will see the truth and beauty of God's will for our lives in all of Scripture, and thus will have courage to vote against proposals that, as you say, are accommodating to a decaying culture. I also pray for peace in our denomination. Robert Johnson, Elder, First Presbyterian Church of Elmira, New York Deceived and deceiving June 25, 1999 Rev. Richard Lundy appeals to cultural norms as justification for the church to change our standards. Rev. Harold Potter states that our church is falling behind cultural ethical standards. This is a bad thing? They advocate that the church emulate such stalwarts of virtue as Levi Strauss, Apple Computer and Disney. Do we as the church of Jesus Christ really want to emulate a culture that has given us teen suicide, school shootings, violence, partial-birth abortion, etc...? Rather, aren't we supposed to influence the culture? To be salt and light and a shining city on a hill? It is incredible to me that ministers of the Word could be so deceived and deceiving. Richard A. Cochran, La Plata, Mo. Sola Scriptura = no June 25, 1999 Keeping in mind, "Sola Scriptura," there's no way that, as faithful Presbyterians, that you can approve Overture 99-2. Judith Brown, Bethany Presbyterian Church, Trinity Presbytery, South Carolina Let God decide June 25, 1999 Who are we to decide who may be ordained?Let us include all our brothers and sisters and let God in His time make the final decision. Barb Dillon, Elder, First Presbyterian Church, Rumson, N.J. Standing on God's Word June 25, 1999 I applaud the efforts of those committed Christians who stand in the light of God's Word which is timeless, to keep this denomination from drifting over the precipice and into accepting homosexuals into the ministry or any spiritual leading body which governs a faith community. God's Word is clear to me that the homosexual behavior is wrong, just as any sin is and the person needs to change the behavior and walk back into God's light as have so many people through the assistance of support programs for those desiring to change. Reita Miller Self-serving rebellion June 25, 1999 I am deeply disappointed in the self-serving rebellion against our God and His Scripture, as demonstrated by the GA Committee on Church Orders and Ministries, and by committee moderator Kathy Runyeon. We are called to be a holy people because our God is Holy! This stuff is NOT holy! It is time our denomination stood firmly beside God, followed Scripture, and exercised its disciplinary obligations! How would St. Paul, led by the Spirit of God, have addressed these people? He would surely have rebuked them for sewing false doctrines and teachings of demons! And when they wouldn't stop, he directed that they be put out of the church, to protect it, so that they couldn't deceive others. So be it. Pray the Holy Spirit comes in power, and may He expose the spirits that are deceiving these people. May all of our eyes be opened, and may we all repent and follow Jesus only. Lance Borden, Carlisle, PA From God to the Church June 25, 1999 The provision that all officers of church "live in obedience to Scripture" and that such obedience includes living "in fidelity within the covenant of marriage between a man and a woman, or chastity in singleness" is not a construction mortal humans nor is it bygone moral ethic. It is from Almighty God to His bride, His beloved church – to us in the PC(USA). G.60106b derives from the foundation of the apostles and prophets, the first prophet being Moses who brought us God's command, "Thou shalt not commit adultery" (Exodus 20:14). Our Prophet, Priest and King Jesus said that "anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart," (Matthew 5:28). The Apostle Paul tells us that among God's people "there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality," (Ephesians 5:3). Read your Book of Confessions (e.g., 4.087, 4.109, 7.248-9) and study the Scripture references tied to these Constitutional requirements for ordained officers and all believers. If after reading these you decide to delete G.60106b in the name of whatever inclusive ethic you call upon, then you most certainly delete the foundation of our church, the foundation of the apostles and prophets. Removal of our foundation can mean only one thing: The collapse of the PC(USA). Pastor Allen Kemp, Suffern Presbyterian Church, Hudson River Presbytery, Suffern, NY Prayer for those under attack June 25, 1999 I am praying for you and I pray that once again the attack will be repelled by the GA following the leader; both invisible through Christ and visible through the Word of God. Rev. Mike Barry, First Presbyterian, Libertyville, Ill. Of overtures and overrule June 25, 1999 Those who wish to change the Presbyterian church by overture and overrule the will of the Spirit as expressed in recent votes now deem it necessary to go beyond our way of governance. The moderator of the committee is out of order and should demote or be removed in order maintain decency and order. Jim Conner Granger, Ind. Leaders should set example June 25, 1999 As an elder from Clinton, S.C. I ask commissioners to please oppose Overture 99-2. Teachers, leaders, and officers are to set an example for the flocks we serve. Let us continue to hold the standard high, for we serve the Lord Christ who called us to be holy even as our Father in heaven is holy. Barry E . Cox, elder, Clinton, S.C. Keep it like it is June 25, 1999 Jesus said "neither do I condemn you." But he also said "go and sin no more." We have already voted 2-1 for fidelity and chastity. Keep it. Ames G Broen, pastor, Las Vegas, Nevada Use some discipline June 24, 1999 The Church Orders and Ministry Committee's work should be ruled null and void. Moderator Kathy Runyeon should be disciplined and the matter should end there. General Assembly should not be forced to vote on this recommendation and therefore the church should not have to waste their time on considering something that is obviously a sham. Steve Hurt Odessa, TX Keep Amendment B June 24, 1999 I pray that the commissioners will have the faith and honor to KEEP Amendment B [G-60106b]. Standing for truth and holiness may appear uncompassionate. But it is only viewed so by those who do not want to repent. The truth so clearly contained in the Word of God calls us to God's standards, not our own. Jesus said, "Go and sin no more." He didn't say, "Keep on sinning. Whatever!" Tom Warren, Presbytery of East Tennessee Whatever happened to sin? June 24, 1999 "Falling behind cultural ethical standards"? "Committed relationships"? "Move forward"? "Presbyterians to sue Exxon because Exxon does not provide same-sex benefits"? Have you people gone insane? Am I the only Prebyterian left who knows the word SIN? Have any of you Book of Order experts ever thought of actually consulting The Bible? Nah! Historically irrelevant to these "its gotta feelgood" times! Right? Ron Hinds, Coppell, TX Another divisive year ahead? June 24, 1999 I am very saddened by the committee's vote to accept 99-2 and reopen this divisive subject in the PCUSA. I am also upset by the way it was done without regard to the rules the church has adopted to ensure fairness for both sides. However, the proponents of homosexual ordination don't seem to be concerned about fairness, but only about advancing their own agenda. For 20 years our church has consistently voted against homosexual ordination. We were supposed to have a "sabbatical" this year, a time for cooling off and maybe even healing. (Remember that?) I hope and pray that the General Assembly has the wisdom and discernment to reject the committee's report. Otherwise we will waste another year of time and uncounted money that could have gone to further Christ's work in angry arguments over the same issue with the same result. Reggie Gates, elder Lakewood, Calif. Shocked by action June 24, 1999 I am shocked that a minister commissioner from Redwoods Presbytery could rule to reconsider Overture 99-2, which had been disposed of earlier by her committee vote to accept a substitute motion. This is not the way our Presbyterian Church does business "decently and in order" and under Robert's Rules! Richard Dyer, elder San Francisco Presbytery No more voting campaigns June 24, 1999 The General Assembly must not continue subjecting our denomination to yearly denominationwide dialogues and voting campaigns over this issue [of ordination standards]. Our polity calls for leaders to vote their consciences, that we are not simply a representative government where the leaders are to represent the people who elected them. You must listen to your conscience which must be screaming that it will not be good for our dear church to have to keep debating this ordination issue. Please save us from such unhealthy deliberations. The Lord must be frustrated with how we are spending our time and energies. Go into his presence and behold him in all his holiness. Do you have any questions now? Ray Meute Jr., Pastor Avondale, Pa. Can not advance the mission of Christ's church June 23, 1999 The question of deviant sexual behavior is detracting from the mission of the Church. These homosexuals will not accept the truth. Even when recognized as doing good works, they have to detract from the mission of the Church by advancing their mission. This does not and can not advance the mission of Christ's church one step. In my opinion it sets the mission back 1000 steps. This is not to say "Do not minister to them". As Christians we must minister to them. Ministering to them is the mission of the Church as the it is the mission of the Holy Spirit to minister to all of us. It is a mission we can not ignor. However in minstering, we should not change our standard for Ordination for a well organized vocal fringe element. It is they who should conform criteria establised by the Cannon. If it is acceptance they want let them go establish their own denomination. Finally, in all my 62 years I have never known a homosexual person who accepted themselves. If they did accept themselves they would not have to say boldly, "I'm gay". Personally, confession is, in my opinion, best done in a small closet when you pray. The only other place is in "Meeting" when everyone else is confessing. In closing, I noticed last Sunday, the hall was only 80% full. In this Bible belt area it tells me there must be many others that believe we are not getting on with the Mission of the Church. Russell W. Leavens, Deacon and Elder, First Presbyterian Church, Grapevine, Texas Setting the mind on the flesh June 23, 1999 Jesus spoke of denying one's self, taking up a cross (instrument of painful death) and following him. Mt. 16:24 Mk. 8:34. Paul wrote in Romans 8 that "those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh..." and "To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace." What then is it to live ruled by the need to have the sexual preference and/or activity of one's flesh condoned by church and state? Is this not "setting the mind on the flesh?" Where is denying self? the cross? Where is the witness of "life and peace" of the mind set on the Spirit? The church whose Lord is a crucified and risen Jesus cannot validate the rule of the flesh in the lives of its people. J.M. Compleman-Blair Higher standard for leaders June 22, 1999 Scripture clearly calls ALL church leaders to a higher standard of accountability. I don't see the church excluding individuals for their sexual orientation, I see them excluding individuals to serve in a leadership position for blatant disregard for biblical standards. There is a difference. Paul wrote that the desire to be a leader in the church was a noble task. He also wrote that there were standards to be met in order to serve in leadership positions. This included being above reproach, and have the ability to keep hold of the truths of faith. Was he wrong for instructing this? Are we wrong for disregarding it and pursuing our own standards for church leadership? Todd Szymczak, Youth Minister, Fort Square Church Quincy, MA Dead ideals of the '60s It is surprising to me that the PSUSA liberals are holding on to the dead ideals of the 1960s. Indeed, that is what they are trying to do. When civil rights legislation was passed in the 1960s, the church was on the forefront of working to overcome prejudice, as well they should. But liberals quickly worked themselves out of a job. Race relations in the church worked too well. They quickly turned to another supposedly impoverished group, homosexuals. But their arguments are founded on false assumptions. First of all, homosexuals are far from poor and persecuted. As a rule, they make up one of the highest socio-economic groups in the country. Secondly, their lifestyle is far from monogamous. TIME magazine recounted an article several years ago that described the predator lifestyle of most homosexuals. In essence, some homosexuals have hundreds of lovers, hardly a suppresed monogamous minority. Thirdly, and most importantly, homosexuality is a chosen activity. It may be true that some people are born with homosexual tendencies, but one can still choose to act out these tendencies or suppress them. We are all born with tendencies toward lust and anger but if we act these out through rape and murder, we are imprisoned. Likewise, if homosexuals cannot control themselves, then they are in need of conversion therapy, prayer, psychological counseling, but not ordination. One of the greatest statements that homosexuals make is that God wants us to celebrate who we are. That is a non-Christian belief. Christ calls us to change who we are. We are asked to: "Deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow Christ." But in shallow America, with our shallow president and shallow culture, instant gratification is the norm. The self-discipline that Christians are required to show has all but disappeared. We should oppose not just homosexual ordination, but the entire liberal agenda. We are called to transform the world not to conform to it. When we let the liberals control our church, we will open wide the gates of hell and once again crucify our risen Lord. Kevin Wolfe Debate already causing schisms First of all, I appreciate your standing pat under the flak you catch for standing for biblical truths. I pastor two small rural churches, and my congregations are angry, and sick and tired of having this come up at every GA meeting and presbytery meeting they have to attend. We need to put this whole issue to rest, abide by the Book of Order, and get on with the business of the church. I have heard debate, after debate, and the Scriptures haven't changed one iota in their scathing denouncement of a sinful lifestyle. When will we the church stop straining at a gnat and swallowing the camel of liberal emotionalism? I do not want to ever see the PC(USA) split over any issue, but this ongoing debate over something we shouldn't have to debate, if we truly believed the Scriptures, is causing some schisms already. We are losing members because of it, and we are going to continue to lose members until we get our act together as a denomination. I am not for excluding anyone from membership in our churches, but leadership is a whole 'nother matter. Thanks again for keeping us straight on the true things that are happening in our denomination. Keep up the good work. Gene Edwards Issues won on bended knees In the June 10 article titled "Pro-homosexual legislation tallying victories in California," lobbyist Art Croney was quoted as saying, "This is ... the time for ... individuals to band together for the strongest possible vote. (T)hese political battles just take millions of people who vote and vote wisely. And who write letters to their congressman." One would expect a lobbyist to say this. But no amount of lobbying or of writing letters to congressmen will change the heart of this nation to seek after God. As the Lord has said, "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." (Is. 55.8-9) These political battles are won on the bended knees of the men and women of God. Yes, lobby the legislature. Yes, write letters to your congressman. But do not put your trust in these measures to change or preserve the laws of this nation or of the Presbyterian Church (USA). As the Lord said through the Prophet Jeremiah, "Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know." (Jer. 33.3) Loren J. Golden Say no to 'alternates' There can be no ministration in the Kirk of God for those who practice pederasty, homosexuality, sodomy and other deviant moral standards. It is well that I do not attend GA as I would drive out at the point of a LOL sword those who advocate the "alternate" lifestyle and seek to impose such on the church. John Davis A wake-up call from sin As a former Presbyterian, I am sickened that the homosexual issue is still being debated. This issue is one of the main reasons my family left the Presbyterian church a little over a year ago. God says homosexuality is wrong and is sin – no debate is needed. As a Christian, when I sin I am convicted and miserable until I am controlled by Christ and not my sinful desires. Wake up, or the denomination is sure to die. Sharon Doudt Go and sin no more Thank you for the opportunity to write you regarding my concerns about the "evil ones" attack on Christ's Church, the Presbyterian branch. No where in Scripture have I been able to find where it states that ongoing practicing sin is acceptable. Jesus said many times, "GO AND SIN NO MORE", "YOUR SINS ARE FORGIVEN." He did not say that we could continue in our sin willfully without any consequences and be completely acceptable. None of us are without sin. All of us have "logs in our own eyes," and with that in mind, and in comparison, do we openly practice that sin? Do we flaunt our weaknesses and claim them as strengths? I am a sinner and I know it and readily confess my sins to my Lord. I strive for a better life and try to set an example for others to follow. My prayer is that our church will do likewise. William J. Wadsworth, Elder Network 'lays low' I see that the Covenant Network wants to continue to "lay low" regarding fidelity/chastisty rules for ordination. It's easy to see why. As long as they can keep out of the headlines they can continue to undermine the church's constitution by opposing enforcement of fidelity/chastity sections of the Book of Order. The sabbatical will be over only when the Covenant Network has marshalled its forces, taken over Presbyteries from within, and knows it can win the war. Every conflict brought into the open and won now will prevent the Network from even considering such a direct confrontation. Edward Halteman Ugly prejudice faced Thank you for supporting the authority of scripture in the face of attacks on it and on the PCUSA denomination. I left the church for a long while, and there has been much sin in my own life, but praise God that when I turned again to Him and repented of my wicked life, he cleansed, pardoned, and restored me. I am presently an inquirer for minister of the Word and sacrament. I believe that the Bible is God's word to man rather than mans' word about God.
Charlie McFarlin Man-made or God-made? Why do we continue to express surprise and amazement when those who believe that the Word of God is inerrant are attacked by those who don't? Why do we concern ourselves with maintaining civil discourse with those who claim Christ with words, but deny Him in practice? Why have we elevated the man-made denomination over the God-made church; striving to remain connected to those who oppose us? When will we, as shepherds of our flocks, act to protect them from the wolves in sheeps' clothing and separate ourselves from the apostate church? Christ loved the world, but rebuked the Pharisees and priest in the strongest possible way. He forgave the woman at the well, but He did not change the definition of sin to please her. Let us be continually transformed into the complete image and likeness of Christ; not the artificial man-made image created by our opponents that they wish us all to worship! Matt Gedge, Elder Wrong lifestyle for leaders My opinion is there's no place for this type of [homosexual] lifestyle for our leaders. As elders, we can be removed for sexual immorality. Why should it be any different for pastors. This is the kind of situation that drives people away from our church. We should support traditional marriage and families. Ed Von Ruf Time to take a stand In 1993 we inactivated our membership in PCUSA. The two events that caused this action were (1) a household move to another state, (2) the sad spectacle of the PCUSA at its highest levels condoning and encouraging sinful behavior. We have now moved back and have not reactivated our membership and will not do so until/unless the PCUSA takes a stand for objective virtue in Scripture instead of subjective values of culture. Marguerite Duncan |
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