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Boy Scouts, page 2 Who's in conflict with whom? Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 29, 2001 According to your article, Gina Yeager has said the Boy Scouts are "in conflict with the basic theological foundations of the Presbyterian Youth Connection." I wonder if the converse is true. Are members of the Presbyterian Youth Connection in conflict with the Scout Oath and the Scout Law? Is their goal to do their worst, to avoid their duty to God and their country? Is it their intention to be untrustworthy, disloyal, unhelpful, unfriendly, discourteous, unkind, disobedient, morose, extravagant, cowardly, slovenly,and irreverent? Given Ms. Yeager's opposition and "concern," one wonders. Sidney L. Leak III, Eagle Scout Pastor, First Presbyterian Church Manchester, Tenn. How much money was denied? Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 29, 2001 I am very upset at what appears to be an abuse toward Presbyterian Scouting by the denomination as regards the denial of some funding to the Scouts. John Adam's article has left me confused and I want to make sure I understand exactly what the funding denial is. Adams mentions in his second paragraph that a funding request has been denied, but does not mention the specifics (how much money was denied, what was the specific request for). Later in the article he discusses the novelty item that is given out to scouts at the National Jamboree which will not have the Presbyterian logo printed on it this time. Does the funding request that has been denied have to do with the novelty item and the Presbyterian logo, or is there another funding request that has been denied? The Yeager letter says only that "we have made the decision not to approve NAPS request for a grant." Jim Kettlewell Boy Scout officials say they had expected a grant of $7,000 for a Web site. The Editors Church should dissociate from Scouts Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 29, 2001 The U.S. Supreme Court saying the Scouts can exclude does not make it correct. We are not required to pay primary allegiance to the U.S. courts by to our Lord Jesus. I believe it is right for the Presbyterian Church (USA) to disassociate from the Scouts over this issue and not provide national funds. However, I also believe each local session should make the decision on troop sponsorship and when/if troops can use church facilities for scouting activities. James Fox PCUSA Elder PCUSA 'consistantly acts in ways contrary to our beliefs' Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 29, 2001 I and my family have been members of the Presbyterian church for 18 years. I and my wife have been very active in our church, serving on session and deacons. I am currently and have been a representative for our church with the Chicago Presbytery for the past seven years. This latest news on the way our denomination is treating the Boy Scouts is very troubling, troubling to the point of "is it worth staying a member of a denomination that consistantly acts in ways contrary to our beliefs?" Our family has stayed in the Presbyterian church to be "light in the darkness." We feel our beliefs are in line with the Bible, and to consistantly see the Presbyterian church leaders take positions opposite of the Bible (Ffdelity and chastity, homosexuality, etc), we are at the point of saying "can we support a denomination that has values that are opposite of the Bible's?" We have not left the church to "go down the road to a neighboring church," but we are close. Bob Westrich Lincolnshire, Ill. Staff member's decision should be appealed Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 29, 2001 Now there's another egregious example of people overstepping their bounds, in my opinion. I truly wonder whether the Congregational Ministries Division person quoted as denying the funding request really has the authority to do so. This should at least be appealed to the director of the Congregational Ministries Division, and, ultimately, to the full General Assembly Council. As an aside, I have found it ironic for years that, although the amounts of money may be nominal, we nationally support our 64-or-so Presbyterian-related colleges with denominational funding, and yet, to the best of my knowledge, Wilson College in Chambersburg, Pa., still only admits women to it on-campus residential programs. In other word, if a male wishes to go there full-time and live in the dorms, he cannot. Hey, that's discrimination! Yet, our denomination does nothing when we support this. Dr. Stephen H. Janssen Easminster Presbyterian Church Marietta, Ga. People work against their employers Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 29, 2001 Why does the Presbyterian Church (USA) employ people who work against us? That is poor use of church funds. The Boy Scouts is a healthy, wholesome organization that promotes respect for God and for people, teaches boys to be self sufficient and reliable, to be helpful and resourceful, to be clean in thought, word and deed. I spent ten years leading a Girl Scout troop. My husband spent time with Boy Scouts, too, though busy with a profession. Gina Yeager is promoting the Youth Ministry? She would not be permitted to lead my children. Are children so young already gay? Or just mentally adjusted to accept that "lifestyle?" Evelyn M. Thom Baton Rouge, La. The day of departure from PCUSA Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 29, 2001 The day the PCUSA stops the support of the Scouts is the day I will leave the PCUSA. What kind of people do we have running this denomination anyway? Gil Torr PCUSA train running away from its origins, beliefs Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 29, 2001 As individuals, we must confess our sins and repent to find a better path. That a staffer possesses enough arrogant zeal to think that their subset of PCUSA is somehow above/beyond the core beliefs to ostensibly be inclusive is not hard to understand for staffers get out of line all the time. That that staffer's comments were not immediately refuted by cognizant authority, however, means that either cognizant authority (a) exists, but was not consulted or could not be found or (b) does not truly exist. Either not enough homework was done or the PCUSA train is running away from the strengths of its origins and beliefs. It is time for each member individually and the denomination as a whole to confess and repent in order to get back on track – time for spring (spiritual) cleaning and seeking the Lord's blessings! Joe Schmidt Jacksonville, Fla. Turning our backs on historic Christianity Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 29, 2001 The decision by the Presbyterian Church to denounce the Boy Scouts is well under way. J. Gresham Machen made the case for historic Christianity many decades ago and the church turned her back on his warnings of neglecting the purity of the church and the need for standards concerning the beliefs of its leaders. It is absolutely frightening to read the warnings of those before us who saw the need to defend Christianity in its ongoing struggle to be "in the world and not of it." Glen Nelson Edmonds, Wash. How can PCUSA justify its stance? Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 29, 2001 It is truly a sad in our day that the churches today do not take a stronger stance against homosexuality as being an abomination to God according to Romans 1. It is more sad that the Presbyterian Church (USA) supports homosexual leaders regarding our younger generation in the Boy Scouts. How in the world do you justify it when the Church represents not only God but also the written Word of God and Jesus Christ himself? What the homosexual movement is trying to do is infiltrate the youth infrastructure and promote a new breed or generation. If you say that this is the modern times and things have changed, then where is God in all this? Did he change, too? Is he now a she? Don't get me wrong or think that I hate homosexuals. They, too, need the love Jesus Christ. They must know in their hearts that homosexuality is dreadfully wrong. Ed and Jena Figueroa Staff is not showing good sense in Boy Scout decision Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 25, 2001 It is often difficult to distinguish between compassion and good sense. The staff of the Presbyterian Church (USA) is not showing good sense. Homosexuals should be treated fairly, but that does not mean that immature boys should be placed with homosexuals in the intimate situations provided by the Scouts. My first memory of a homosexual incident was when my eighth grade school principal left town suddenly after allegedly making advances to one of the members of a Scout Patrol he had taken on a camping trip. Later, in the Navy over a period of several years, I was required to forward well over a hundred administrative discharges of homosexuals, all of whom had made statements about their sexual activities. A high percentage of these cases described their introduction to homosexual activity as occurring between twelve and fourteen years of age. This is the age of the youngest Scouts. Assuming that about two percent of males are psychologically homosexual there are obviously many scouts who are "closet homosexuals." Open homosexuals would appear to be more likely to be tend to look for partners than closet homosexuals. The Scouts are right in not accepting homosexuals as members or as leaders. Similarly Girl Scouts should not be led by men in camping trips without the presence of a mature woman. Ninety percent of such leaders would probably never make a false move, but the risk should not be taken. J.C.G. Wilson Coronado, Calif. Layman Online article 'agitates' Omaha pastor Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 25, 2001 Thank you for your usual style of creating division within the denomination. I would hope that someday you might get your life together, so that people of differing views might communicate with each other. You obviously have no interest in seeking common ground. You only want to get people agitated. You have agitated me. Greg Carlson 30 year Scouter and local pastor in Omaha PCUSA endorsing sin at expense of our children Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 25, 2001 Sad. Discouraging to think that this once Biblical church of Christ has its sights now set on endorsing and encouraging the sins of Sodom. Even at the expense of children. Mike Carr, Sr. 'Perpetual auditors' needed in Louisville Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 25, 2001 By what authority do these ecclesiastical bureaucrats act? We need a team of "perpetual auditors" walking the corridors of Louisville. Better still, we need to clean house. In essence, our conflict is of a spiritual nature. That means, it has a spiritual solution. That means, a "call to arms" in the form of prayer and repentance. Our headquarters ought to be Holy Ground, sanctified unto the Lord. In reality, it is a potter's field covered with broken vessels. Jerry J. Voss Let's put an end to low-brow thinking, spiritual claptrap Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 25, 2001 In spite of the fact that Boy Scouts have a long and worthy record, their failure with gays is tragic. In a world where there are so many boundaries, and so much subsequent suspicion and hatred, here's one place where we don't need boundaries. How great it would be if the Boy Scouts would choose to affirm their traditional role of leadership on this matter, and help our society dispel mythical notions of gays and lesbians as something evil. My own Scouting experience was cut short because of an inept and drunken Scout leader, and he was, I'm sure, as "straight" as an arrow. So let's not cast stones. Let's see if we can work together. Let's see how large the circle of love can grow. I salute our denomination and encourage this stance. Once and for all, we can put a stop to the kind of low-brow thinking buttressed by spiritual claptrap that has done more to damage the cause of Christ then hell itself. Tom Eggebeen, Pastor St. Paul's Presbyterian Church Livonia, MI PCUSA should support Scouts, study the Bible Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 25, 2001 It's a sad day in Christendom when a Christian denomination denies the Word of God. The staff of the Presbyterian Church (USA) should by all means support the Boy Scouts, and prayerfully study the Bible which condemns homosexuality and lesbianism as abominations in no uncertain words. In this case, there is also no room for error or misinterpretation, since both the Old and the New Testament fully agree. We need to pray for all sinners, including homosexuals. But to sanction sin also is sin. It would be the same as when they brought the adulteress to Jesus, and the cunning religious people of his day thought to lay a trap for Jesus, since, according to the law, the woman would have to be stoned. You know Jesus' answer, but read it again, and realize that Jesus did not say to the adulteress, "Go, woman, it's OK, keep on doing your thing." No, Jesus told the adulteress that He did not condemn her (none of the people would do so, either, since all were sinners), but Jesus added: "Go and sin no more." That's the advice that all Christian believers should offer as testimony to their erring brothers and sisters. Not because we are without sin, but because we all are called to live not by our imaginings but by God's commandments, which prohibit fornication, adultery, sodomy, homosexuality, pedophilia and all other unclean acts. Oskar Gruenwald Liberals' passion becomes vindictive Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 25, 2001 GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR !!!!!! The passion of the liberals is exceeded only by their profound vindictiveness. Dan Greenblat San Diego Why continue relationship with the denomination? Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 25, 2001 It seems to me that the more fundamental question is: Why does the Presbyterian Lay Committee insist that continuing an association with the PCUSA is appropriate? Matt Gedge Covington, La. Elder is ready to dissociate from the denomination … Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 25, 2001 Thank God my session appointment is up this month. This will make a very nice dissociating point for me, too. I'm so sick of this denomination. The Atlanta Presbytery makes a mockery of decency and fairness. Many clergy are cowardly and dishonest in their attacks on anyone who doesn't share their twisted viewpoint. I can't wait to leave. I regret I have financially supported such corruptness. The final straw has now occurred. Elizabeth Clark Price Roswell Presbyterian Church Roswell, Ga. Minister-Eagle Scout wants break from staff Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 25, 2001 How do I notify the staff that I have begun dissociating from them because of their position on the Boy Scouts of America? Rev. Ernest Williams Eagle Scout Layman should accept Jesus or some other loving Lord Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 25, 2001 I fully agree with PCUSA actions in relation to the Boy Scouts in America. It is appalling to me that you continue to insist on your Christian Biblical righteousness when Jesus warned us explicitly many times about the destructive pride of any righteousness. The continuing challenge to you is to accept Jesus or any other spiritual leader who just loves people period! Carter Rose Discrimination against people 'born' gay inconceivable Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 25, 2001 It is inconceivable to me that intelligent people would discriminate against their brothers, fathers and sons because they were born the way they are. Rev. Dr. Joseph W. Shook Scout membership issue is shocking Re: Methodist agency wants Boy Scouts to admit gays January 17, 2000 I'm shocked! As a Methodist and an Eagle Scout in the Boy Scouts of America, this has struck a nerve. This is akin to the Supreme Court forcing an avowed Satanist to be admitted to the membership roles of the United Methodist Church. To become a member of the Boy Scouts of America one must learn and agree to follow the Boy Scout Oath. In 1955 I joined the B.S.A. and took the following oath. "On my honor, I will do my best, to do my duty, to God and my country, to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight." Notice that honor comes first. First and foremost a Boy Scout does not lie. Notice the oath ends with morally straight. Straight and gay are opposites. One can not be both at the same time. The Boy Scouts teach us to respect all individuals. Gay individuals are not hated by the Boy Scouts. The gay lifestyle is just not one Boy Scouts wish to themselves adopt. They should not be required to accept into membership anyone who is diametrically opposed to that for which they stand. Why would anyone want to belong to an organization that does not support their individual beliefs? Such an action by the courts would cut into the moral and social fabric of the organization. If this were to happen the Boy Scouts would no longer be the Boy Scouts. The Boy Scouts of America may not be a church, but they are based on religious beliefs and have "God & Country" awards representing many of the world's religious faiths. Jeff Furru Warner Robins, Ga. Where is the PCUSA? August 17, 1999 I thank you for reporting on the attack on the Boy Scouts organization. I have two comments with regard to your report. Where is the PCUSA in all of this? We sponsor Boy Scout troops, so why aren't we supporting them in this battle? (Actually, I am not surprised we weren't mentioned as supporters; though perhaps there is another story here – one about why we are silent on this issue.) I am concerned about the Mormons' effort to become "mainstream" or popularly accepted as being part of Christianity. I think that we Christians need to be careful in the way we talk about the Mormon "Church" so that we do not confuse people about whether the Mormon faith is part of Christianity. It is not. It has more in common with Islam than true Christianity. So, I recommend to you that in your reporting, such as this article on the Boy Scouts, you carefully distinguish Mormonism from Christianity, that you not apply the word church to the Mormon organization unless you qualify that usage. Glen T. Eason Pastor Presbyterian Church of Osceola Mills (PA) Editor's note: A spokesman for the Institute on Religion and Democracy, which provided the material for The Layman Online's account of the legal efforts to force the Boy Scouts of America to open their doors to homosexual scouts, said the Presbyterian Church (USA) was not asked to sign an amicus curiae brief to support the scouts. He said Roman Catholics, United Methodists, Lutherans and Mormons were asked to do so because they have national scouting offices.
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