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Boy Scouts  Debate has turned from Scripture to 'fairness' Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts June 1, 2001 The homosexual lobby has succeeded in turning the debate from Scripture to "fairness," in my opinion, because we have allowed it. A just and loving God gave us the means to have our sins washed away. Christ told his Apostles to tell the world of that atonement because God wants everyone to take advantage of it. We do no favors by redefining some sins as "natural" behavior because we don't think a "loving" God could condemn people, regardless of the Scripture's message. If we are to be Christ's Church, we must recognize sin for what it is and love and minister to those possessed by any sin. Brother Steve Brown tells the story of a rally he was involved in to reach and minister to AIDs patients. After the sermon, a man with AIDs came up to Steve with tears in his eyes and said, "I would have loved anyone who loved me." We must be loving and compassionate, but we must stand firm. If the result is a schism in the PCUSA, that is not all bad. Denominations were made by men and change periodically. But Scripture and salvation were given by God, they never change, and they are our reason for being. Gary Loftis Markham Woods Presbyterian Church Lake Mary, FL Boy Scouts will continue at Community Presbyterian Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts June 1, 2001 We have Boy Scouts in our church and will as long as we are able. They are a ripe mission field of parents and children. They also support children in the essential assests that build for healthy adults. I am deeply distress by pressure to disaffiliate with the Boy Scouts. I guess those same people will not want to associate with Community Presbyterian Church, Waldport Oregon. Rev. James R. Howe Writer: Be careful with inferences Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts June 1, 2001 The article concerning the attack on the teenager by his Boy Scout Master is heart breaking. It violates every principle of decency known to humankind. However, there is a hook. Printing this article in Layman Online requires that we be honest, ourselves. We may not approve of the homosexual lifestyle. I do not believe that scripture regards homosexuality as a lifestyle appropriate to Christians. However, we should be clear that homosexuality is not synonymous with homosexual or heterosexual rape. The crime and the sin in the St. Bartholomew article is that the Boy Scout Master was a Pedophile. This sickness transcends sexual gender and orientation. I appreciate the good work you are doing in support of the Confessing Church Movement and the issues it raises. I hope you understand this letter is an attempt to insure that we are fair and beyond reproach in placing these issues before the church and not give occasion for others to discredit these concerns because we were not careful about context amd interpretation. Rev. Gary H. Aven First Presbyterian Church Staff should be held accountable Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts June 1, 2001 Gina Yeager et. al, should be held accountable! Her personal views on morality are contrary to our confessions, and an orthodox understanding of the Word of God. Is there no more "Thus says the Lord", in the land of the PCUSA? Jerry J. Voss Policy robs PCUSA of credibility Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts June 1, 2001 This bad policy of the PCUSA robs the church of credibility - we also prohibit homosexual leaders. This may be nothing more than an expression of anger from the minority left. W. Douglas Hood, Jr. Head of Staff, Lenape Valley Presbyterian Church New Britain, Pa. The Church should stand apart from society Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts June 1, 2001 Gina Yeager, the Congregational Ministries Division and Presbyterian Youth Connection are out of touch, not the Boy Scouts of America or the National Association of Presbyterian Scouters. This is a church and in this particular denomination, homosexual practice is still considered a sin. What gives the Congregational Ministries Division and Presbyterian Youth Connection the authority to work in circumvention of our policies? I am sophisticated enough to understand that the leadership of the PCUSA is much more concerned about coalescing our denomination with social trends than it is with standing firm on the Scripture. Why? The Church should stand apart from society, not align itself with the world. Our American popular culture is sin-sick. The Church should not follow the culture but adhere to Paul's admonition to be not conformed to this world but transformed to God's kingdom. Earl Tilford Second Presbyterian Church Carlisle, Pa. This pastor supports the actions of BSA Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts June 1, 2001 When I first became aware of Ms. Yeager's actions with regard to her bold letter to BSA and the denial of funding based upon their policy to prohibit homosexual persons from being leaders I was angered! Since when can staff persons make such decisions on their own? She does not speak for me as one Presbyterian pastor who whole-heartedly supports the actions of BSA! There is no place for homosexual persons in such a program where an attempt is being made to lift up ideals and standards of morality for youth to follow. Homosexuality is not an acceptable form of lifestyle by Biblical standards! Ms. Yeager is out-of-line and her action set forth in her letter are inappropriate and unacceptable to me. She needs to be disciplined and another letter sent correcting this gross error on her part. Forgive me, but doesn't staff work for us? Since when does staff make policy? Something is really amiss in the home office! Of course, this nothing new. I hope this is not a forecast of the same yet to come. If it is, then this denomination has seen its better days and deserves to cease as a viable entity of the Church of Jesus Christ! Rev. Ronald E. Kinsey Omaha, Neb. May the church be obedient to the true Jesus Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts June 1, 2001 I am repeatedly mystified about the origin of the idea that Jesus would approve of continuing in wrong doing. Yes, he mixed with social outcasts, advised forgiveness (for the repentant, he specified), grieved over his rejection by Jerusalem. But he was severely condemning of those persisting in sin especially of wayward religious leaders. Remember that his moral frame of reference was Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy, not Greek temple practices. Remember his list of the evil that comes from within, from the heart: "sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, etc." Mark 7:20-23. I have seen no indication that Jesus considered natural or inborn tendencies exempt from judgment. I think that most men are born with a strong tendency toward adultery but the church has not therefore been approving of the conduct, yet! Correlated with our "Year of the Child" Jesus was especially hard on anyone who would cause a youngster to go wrong. "And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin it would be better for him [or her] to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea....such things must come but woe to the [one] through whom they come..." (Matthew 18:5-8) Many, if not most, teen agers, boys and girls, go through periods of same sex attractions, crushes, hero worship, in normal development. If they are conditioned to regard such as long term good, desirable and commendable some may be permanently so oriented. The church should not be a party to such directives and encouragements. God grant that his church, the Body of Christ, may be obedient to the true Jesus Messiah, not a fictional construction of our wishful thinking, influenced by our desire to be approving of everything and everyone. Birch Rambo, M.D. Elder Mt. Pleasant, S.C. BSA maintains integrity and faith Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 30, 2001 As a former professional scouter, and current PCUSA pastor who left the Boys Scouts of America to enter ordained ministry, I have strong loyalty to both organizations. However, with the radical liberalism that characterizes so much of the leadership of this denomination, I must now confess to stronger loyalites to the BSA, which had the integrity and faith to maintain its stand on the traditions moral values on which it was founded, while the PCUSA rejects an amendment that affirmed God's creation ordinances with respect to marriage. Well, if things continue the way they are going, in a few decades the Boy Scouts of America will be as strong as ever, and the PCUSA will cease to exist. To listen to the leadership of the PCUSA one would think the Scouts are akin to Hitler Youth of Nazi Germany. The Boy Scouts of America continue to maintain their unrivaled program providing boys and young men the opportunity for character development, personal fitness, and community service. Oh, we certainly wouldn't want Presbyterian youth to be exposed to such things, would we? Jim Wilken, pastor Chillisquaque Presbyterian Church Pottsgrove, Pa. It's time for honesty, sanity, charity Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 30, 2001 I believe that the time has come for honesty, sanity and charity among us all, conservatives, moderates, and liberals alike. Honesty: It is time to admit we are a divided denomination. Sanity: It is time to stop killing ourselves. Charity: it is time to uphold true freedom of conscience. Since the closing of the Article 13 window, and the ensuing Report on Human Sexuality, we all have been forced into a territorial power struggle, and there is no other option but to keep on fighting until we win or are annihilated. Palestinians and Israelis? No, Presbyterians. Now it is time with honesty, sanity and charity to provide a third way (the way out peaceably) for those congregations who desire peaceable withdrawal and dismissal to another Reformed body. I hope and pray that the leaders of all the various groups within our denomination, the Stated Clerk, and the Moderator of the General Assembly will work together to provide reasonable, honest, sane and charitable processes for congregations to withdraw from the PCUSA. The time is now, at this upcoming General Assembly. John Mabray Boy Scouts and Book of Order is non-inclusive Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 30, 2001 If the CMD refused a grant to Boy Scouts on the basis of being non-inclusive, then the CMD cannot permit any grants for any congregations belonging to the PCUSA, for our Book of Order is non-inclusive. The PCUSA could end up being sued for not applying an equal opportunity to all non-inclusive groups, and possibly losing its non-profit status for not applying the same standards to its own congregations that it does to the Boy Scouts. Someone needs to weigh in heavy here and get this decision quickly reversed! John Stuart Knoxville, Tenn. Those who demand tolerance are intolerant Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 30, 2001 Isn't it interesting that those that demand tolerance toward their lifestyle are so intolerant of anyone that don't agree? Now, certain staff members of PCUSA are starting to persecute those that want to uphold Biblical standards, such as the Boy Scouts. I say it's time for PCUSA to start raising the standards of moral behavior, starting with themselves. Donald Snider Minster/Eagle Scout applauds BSA Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 30, 2001 Shame on the PYC! As a Minister of the Word and Sacrament as well as an Eagle Scout I applaud the work of the Boy Scouts of America. I am proud that the Scouts have upheld their standards. Rev. Tom Groome Covenant Presbyterian Church Spartanburg, S.C. Writer has a bad day Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 30, 2001 I'm having a bad day. The Democrats took over the Senate, the homosexuals are on CNN Talkback right now, and the feedback coming in to the program is all pro-gay. I give not a cent to the Presbyterian Church (USA) – and I think it's all becoming a hopeless cause. But I commend you for hanging in. I've given up. Betty Grogg The wheel that squeaks loudest … Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 30, 2001 If this denomination continues on the path that the so-called leaders are taking, I and more than likely many, many more like me, will be gone. I can not understand that this Christian (?) church is falling into the abyss of homosexuality. I guess its the old adage that the wheel that squeaks the most gets the grease first. If I was still involved in the Boy Scouts, I would recommend that they close their doors permanently before going against their values. Bob Wardrop Inverness, Fla. Satan using leadership of PCUSA Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 30, 2001 As the Confessing Church Movement is gaining momentum, Satan has started using the leadership of PCUSA. Forcing the Boy Scouts of America to accept "homosexuals" as their leaders is an attack of the devil. The leadership wants to keep the devil in the denomination. It the present PCUSA leadership over and above the Lord our God? Can their decisions supersede the orders of the Scriptures? We don't understand that on one hand the members of the denominations are fighting hard to lead the denomination PCUSA out of sin and on the other hand the leadership of the denomination is trying to push the church deeper into sin. We wait till the time that PCUSA leadership becomes mature and obedient to God and His Word. Rev. Dr. Major (Retired) Timotheus Nasir Moderator, The United Presbyterian Church of Pakistan Gujranwala, Pakistan Heresy has permeated the PCUSA Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 30, 2001 As a life long scouter and a Presbyterian since 1977 I am disgusted with the ongoing ripple effects of the heresy that has so permeated the PCUSA. The only option is to split and let the heresy devour itself without devouring the rest of us. Bob Norcross Newton, Mass. Proud to be Scout leader, ashamed of PCUSA Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 30, 2001 I am a PCUSA pastor and someone who has been involved in scouting for over 25 years. I am proud to be an Eagle Scout and proud to be a scout leader. I am ashamed of my denomination. If anything, we should be in solidarity with the Boy Scouts because we believe the same way. Or, at least we did last time I checked. The wedge of division in the PCUSA just got pounded deeper. David Weyrick Stow Presbyterian Church Let us see the 'misguided logic' for ourselves Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 30, 2001 Please consider the merits of posting at www.layman.org the complete copy of the recent Boy Scout letter denying funding to the National Association of Presbyterian Scouters. If possible, put out the original as a jpeg so we can see the letterhead, signature, and the misguided logic and erroneous theological underpinnings for ourselves. Let us all have a first hand look at yet another document from Louisville which serves as an effective wrecking ball from within. I am an Eagle Scout, a lifelong Presbyterian, and ordained PCUSA pastor. This is not a good day for us. Lt. Col. Carl R. Lammers Washington, DC Action is in conflict with foundations of Christian faith Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 30, 2001 As a former Life Scout, and the father of a "physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight" Eagle Scout who also earned the Presbyterian version of the "God and Country Award" at a troop sponsored by a PCUSA church, I hang my head in shame and disgust at the decision of Gina Yeager of the Congregational Ministries Division in denying funds to the Boy Scouts. Isn't it interesting that Ms.Yeager was not busy hastily issuing a check to the Boy Scouts while chanting the mantra "All procedures were followed" (as I assume they were in making application for these funds). Isn't it ironic that withholding of funds when one disagrees with the tenets and practices of an organization (say, like the Reimagining Conferences) is repudiated as meanspirited and exclusive, except when the group cut off espouses traditional beliefs, values and morals? All in the name of inclusivity. As my uncle used to say, "There's no bigot like a liberal bigot." Sadly, I am now put in the position of having to decide if I can support the PYC because there is too strong a discrepancy between the National youth ministry office's position and where I must land as an orthodox, Bible believing Reformed Christian and pastor. Rev. William R. Pawson Minister in Other Service Presbytery of Tropical Florida What has been done? Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 30, 2001 What exactly has the denomination done so far to change relationships with the Boy Scouts of America? I am beyond nauseous. Elizabeth Clark We should support those who promote Christian values Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 30, 2001 As a Presbyterian in Indianapolis, Indiana, I would be very upset to learn that my church is not supporting the Boy Scouts of America. We should be supporting organizations that promote Christian values, not discriminating against them because they take a stand on issues of morality. Erik Hromadka 'Loose heads' take actions contrary to GA Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 30, 2001 Gina Yeager has gone beyond her obligation as a servant of the denomination by sending such a letter to the Boy Scouts of America. If the GA funded the Boy Scouts within it's budget what right does she or the division she represents have to withhold that funding? I would hope the GA will look into this and chastise those who are making policy without the consent of the GA. I can't figure why we have such loose heads trying to take actions contrary to the decisions of the GA. I guess I can figure it out as Satan working within the confines of the headquarters of our Church. It's time to cut bait and rid the denomination of such people. We don't need people like that saying that Presbyterians believe this or that when the majority doesn't. Policy is made and directed by the GA not to be changed by the whims of some who want to change the denominational beliefs especially when it is contrary to the Bible's way of teaching. Charles Louis Pattison Clovis, N.M. 'Do not falter between two opinions' Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 30, 2001 Have you guys had enough, yet? Shake the dust off your shoes and leave this organization (PCUSA) that has become so shameful and embarrassing to those who are true believers, like yourselves. Take your many assets and gifts and go somewhere where your leaders honor God and are good role models of persons truly honoring God to the best of their ability. The behavior of the PCUSA has become undeniably nauseating ... makes you want to spew it out of your mouth. Do not falter between two opinions. If the Lord be God, follow Him ... as for me and my house ... we will serve the Lord. (And not give one red cent of God's money, or one further minute of our time that we give to God's work, to the PCUSA to defile and disgrace again!) Bethany Lane 'This is blackmail in the strongest terms' Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 30, 2001 Obviously, Gina Yeager has never been a Boy Scout. Obviously, the Congregational Ministries Division has little insight into the people in the pew. Obviously, another nail has been hammered into the coffin of the PCUSA as a major denomination. Obviously, we will lose more members over this issue. Obviously, we will not have to worry about how much money we are going to give to the World Council of Churches because we may be asking them to bail us out of our financial difficulties. And most obvious of all is that we are cutting off an organization that has proven itself for decades creating leaders of quality in all fields (including Presbyterian pastors, elders, presidents of the United States, etc.) This is blackmail in the strongest terms. Mr. G. E. Markham, elder Morgan Hill Presbyterian Church Morgan Hill, Calif. What options do local churches have? Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 30, 2001 I read The Layman article regarding the movement of the PCUSA to dissociate the Presbyterian Church from supporting the Scouts. I question whether the national church has the right to speak (or act) on behalf of all the Presbyterian churches in this country in regard to this issue? Can you enlighten me as to what authority this body has to arbitrarily terminate support for an organization which is supported through the fees (i.e. "head tax") paid by churches to the national headquarters? What options do individual churches have to prevent this from happening? Speaking personally, I would favor diverting a portion of the head tax directly to the Scouts from our church, if this trend continues. Ken Stewart, elder Hope Presbyterian Church Richfield, Minn. Movement may delay, but not prevent, schism Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 30, 2001 The excitement generated by the Confessing Church Movement may be overly optimistic. To date, the congregations that have joined the movement, or expressed interest in joining, constitute less than 3 percent of PCUSA congregations and 5 percent of members. This will have little effect on the continuing deterioration of the denomination – as evidenced by the fact that the PCUSA now officially regards the Boy Scouts of America as an evil organization. The Confessing Church Movement may delay, but will not prevent, the eventual schism of the PCUSA. Only that regrettable, but unavoidable, step will bring a resolution to the irreconcileable differences that divide our denomination. Mark Jones Grapevine, Texas This is social engineering Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 30, 2001 I was outraged to read the article about the Boy Scouts. What are our leaders thinking? It is social engineering. What can I do to express my outrage and discussed? Thank you for your invaluable contribution to our denomination. The Rev. Dr. Don McGarity Staff policy on Scouts irresponsible Re: PCUSA begins dissociating from Presbyterian Scouts May 29, 2001 Inclusiveness that compromises moral integrity is an irresponsible position for any church to take. This decision by the staff of the Presbyterian Church (USA) will undoubtedly be followed by still further erosion of Presbyterian membership. It appears the denomination is substituting secular humanism for the gospel. The Boy Scouts of America have addressed the homosexual issue with significantly more mature judgement and courage than the Presbyterian Church. Charles R. East Houston |
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