letters: April 2002


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April 2002 letters An 'enemy' resists unBiblical change April 30, 2002 In supporting the stated clerk's call for a leaner constitution seeking to remove accountability for the conduct of church officers, David Wallace, dean of Johnson C. Smith Theological Seminary, stated that he believed the "enemy" [to post-modern thought] is not personal but is rather, "resistance to change." When change includes supporting the adoption of popular culture in the place of God's rules for how we are to conduct ourselves as Christians – I will resist. When change includes warping the idea of ecumenism to embrace ideas like "unity through diversity" and the acceptance of all religions as equally valid – I will resist. When change includes embracing homosexuality as normal behavior for a born-again Christian – I will resist. Mr. Wallace is free to label me Public Enemy Number One. Dave Hirlinger Newport News, Va. It's all about love … right? April 30, 2002 Love is everything! I love Adolph Hitler. I love Joseph Stalin. I love Osama Bin Laden. I love Ted Bundy. I love Richard Ramirez. Too bad I can't have them all over for dinner. Maybe they would love me to death! In the "liberal world" there is no good or evil/no right or wrong – only what "feels" good. This is the danger facing Presbyterians, Christians and Americans at this moment. Doug Anderson Southlake, Texas Ridding the PCUSA of the persistent widow April 30, 2002 Many share Ed McLean's hope to "avoid having to vote on this issue again" (4/24 posting). Proposals now being considered may help, such as requiring a two-thirds majority for future Book of Order amendments, and changes to preclude further disorderly incidents at GA. The endless debate and voting may finally be nearly over. The next step is already well begun, as individuals and sessions in open violation of G-6.106b are being identified and charged by vigilant elders. Presbyteries are being urged to prosecute credible charges (including heresy) and to carry out sentences with deliberate speed and resolve. Scores of openly homosexual seminary students have already been identified (most by their own admission) so they can never be ordained within the PCUSA. Soon, our church may be cleansed of all openly homosexual elders, deacons and ministers, as well as all who would defy the clear will of the majority of right-thinking Presbyterians. At the end of this process, the widow who has for so long pestered us for "justice" will be gone from the church. Then the Confessing Churches and the others who remain will show how well the love, justice and mercy of Jesus Christ can be manifested in such a Presbyterian Church. But for God's sake and by all means necessary, let's not "vote on this issue again." That would only create disunity and disharmony, and we wouldn't want that. Brian Wells, elder First & Franklin Street Presbyterian Church Baltimore, Md. *Critic of The Layman* misses the mark** April 26, 2002 Elder Dave Duncan really takes The Layman to task and portrays you as real baddies. However, he misses the mark badly when he says that The Layman's opinions and ideas are rooted in the 18th and 19th centuries. Not so. They are rooted a lot further back than that, like, say, before the first century and during the first century. They are rooted at the time the Bible was written. The real problem for Dave seems to be that his opinions are rooted in 21st century postmodernism. Elder Jim Harper Clerk of Session First Presbyterian Church New Smyrna Beach, Fla. *Attack on Layman* is really a compliment** April 26, 2002 In response to David Duncan of Swannanoa, N.C., who labeled The Layman "hateful, unkind, and mean-spirited:" Would you also label Jesus 'hateful, unkind, and mean-spirited' because he called his opponents a "brood of vipers?" Or the doctor, who announces that the tests are positive for cancer, is she similarly "mean-spirited?" The Layman is merely the messenger of a view of the truth to which you object. Beware who cries, "Crucify!" You pay The Layman a grand compliment when you write, "It seems that all the positions taken by your organization are rooted in the 18th or 19th century, if not earlier." Indeed, if we could more clearly discern the unchanging will of God as recorded in the very first century we'd be much farther along in what was begun in the Reformation. Further, it is simply impossible that any modern "scholarship" could show that what was declared to be sinful behavior 2,000 years ago has somehow morphed into behavior now acceptable to God. The law of our sovereign God is not amendable by any of us, be we peasant, pope or Presbyterian. Finally, if this is not the pot calling the kettle black – when you conclude, "The best thing that could possibly happen to the PCUSA in 2002, is for the Presbyterian Lay Committee to self-destruct, burned to death by the acid of its own bile." If that's not "hateful, unkind, and mean-spirited," I don't know what is. You won't win friends to your discredited cause by using the same rhetoric you claim to abhor. Dr. Richard Sleight, member First Presbyterian Church of Bellevue Bellevue, Wash. Many PCUSA youth committed to Biblical orthodoxy April 26, 2002 In response to Brian Cave's letter regarding the youth of our church, their seeming unwillingness to leave and their "fierce" support for Amendment 01-A: I am here to stand up and say there is a sizable faction of youth within the church committed to Biblical orthodoxy, no matter what church leaders say. We will support Amendment G-6.0106b, and will not be pushed from our church! I am a pre-ministerial student at a Presbyterian College and plan to attend seminary when I graduate. But I am worried because my theology often clashes with the theologies of my professors and other church leaders. It is time for real leaders to stand up in our church and proclaim truth. I hope that I can be one of these people some day. I desperately want to stay in the PC USA. But if God calls me to leave for another Reformed denomination that actually reads the Bible and Westminster standards, then I will go. This is to let everyone know that there are students in our schools and seminaries who are faithful and orthodox to the true Catholic Church and that we will not be silenced! We will join together and speak with a loud united voice to stand for Christ's crown and covenant. Tony Lorenz Warsaw First Presbyterian Church Warsaw, Ohio (a Confessing Church) Self-proclaimed 'progressives' becoming mean-spirited April 26, 2002 I think Dave Huting ("you guys {the Layman} sure are mean") should be praying for David Duncan (who wishes The Layman would burn up in acidic bile. Yikes!) rather than praying for The Layman. The self-proclaimed "progressives" seem to be devolving into mean-spirited name-calling and childish defiance (as in Brian Cave's "we will not abide by it {G-6.0106b"). Whatever happened to your prolific claims of tolerance and all-embracing love, my "progressive" friends? Your tantrums defeat your purposes. Grow up. Rev. J.P. Thornton Buchanan Co. Va. Catholic reader: Continue fighting the good fight April 26, 2002 I am a former Presbyterian. I married a Roman Catholic, we had a daughter and I converted. However, I am very aware of the ongoing struggles within the Presbyterian Church (USA). My grandfather, father and mother are, or have been, both elders and deacons in the Church. I am constantly amazed at the battles that the Presbyterian Lay Committee must fight time and time again. Although I am a very content Catholic, I am also intensely proud of my religious heritage. Surprisingly, Catholics and orthodox Presbyterians have much more in common than not. Don't be discouraged. You are truly fighting "the good fight." I will continue to pray for you, and your cause. Roger Butler Tulsa, Okla. Please, no more Amendment A April 24, 2002 Is there any way we can avoid having to vote on this issue again? Ed McLean Maitland, Fla. Avoiding the problems of the Catholic Church April 24, 2002 What more vivid example could one have that a permissive system that embraces homosexuality is bad for any church than the current Roman Catholic Church sex scandals. Just maybe Presbyterians are showing Solomonic wisdom in defeating Amendment A. Doug Anderson Wrong church is leaving April 24, 2002 Circleville Church in New York should be staying and others in the presbytery should be leaving. If the Book of Order would be followed, this is the real Presbyterian Church and the others should move on and become something else. Now that amendment A has been defeated, the other churches should have the problem and not this church. Larry Pulliam Prayers for the 'mean' guys April 24, 2002 You guys sure are mean. I pray for you daily. Dave Huting Layman 'hateful, unkind, mean-spirited' April 24, 2002 Your organization, your leadership, and your publication are all hateful, unkind and mean spirited. Your organization cares not one whit for the peace of the Church or for the love of all the children of God. It is amazing to me that an organization like yours is permitted to continue to have status of any type within a denomination committed to being "reformed and always reforming." It seems that all the positions taken by your organization are rooted in the 18th or 19th century, if not earlier. It is as though there has been no scholarship since that time that you would recognize as valid. There must be a power-play involved in your wanting to remain associated with the PCUSA, because your leadership calls it apostate, and your literature derides it at every turn. The best thing that could possibly happen to the PCUSA in 2002, is for the Presbyterian Lay Committee to self-destruct, burned to death by the acid of its own bile. David Duncan, elder Black Mountain Presbyterian Church Swannanoa, N.C. Keep up the good work April 24, 2002 Although I am Catholic, most of my ancestors were Church of Scotland, including my grandfather. I am glad to have found your Web site. Keep up the good work. B.D. Barnes Don't blame the test April 24, 2002 It would be interesting to compare the failure rates on the Standard Ordination Exams of the seminaries that have the declining enrollments with the performance of students on the Standard Ord's at the seminaries where students are paying their own way. Something tells me that when upwards of 40 percent of our students at Presbyterian seminaries fail the Ords, it is a convenient, but perhaps mistaken, explanation to blame the test. Donald Denton Richmond, Va. What about the anabaptists? April 24, 2002 First, as you claim in the article about the numbers at seminaries, you say that the "Presbyterian" institutions aren't Presbyterian anymore because they have independent boards and they lack classical reformed theology. Well, you seem to be advocating the more "evangelical/conservative," most of them Baptist, and if I'm not mistaken, our Book of Confessions condemns the anabaptists, so your reasoning is faulty. To someone who doesn't know this background information, this could be very convincing. One observation that I tend to notice is that you prey on the one who is not well informed. Tyler Ward Whatever seminary they attend, Presbyterian or evangelical, candidates for minister in the Presbyterian Church (USA) are required to take courses in Reformed theology and Presbyterian polity. The Editors Westminster seminary overlooked April 24, 2002 Concerning enrollments in evangelical seminaries, if you'd used an up-to-date fact book from ATS it would show Westminster on the list. Christianity Today made the same mistake. D. Clair Davis Professor of Church History Westminster Theological Seminary Philadelphia Don't overlook 'Ontario' seminary April 24, 2002 I see that in your listing of evangelical seminaries in the top group for enrollment, you do not highlight "Ontario." Kindly note that the school is indeed evangelical and has a strict statement of faith. There are several of us who are Presbyterian ministers who teach there. It is probably one of the most multi-ethnic seminaries in North America. It celebrates its 25th anniversary this year and is now Canada's largest. (Rev. Dr.) A. Donald MacLeod Adjunct professor of church history Moderator misses the point – again! April 24, 2002 Oops, he did it again! In a recent address to the That All May Freely Serve conference, Moderator Jack B. Rogers refers to a sermon in which he used the Council at Jerusalem (Acts 15:1-21) as a picture of how the GLBT membership of our church should be treated. Since the Gentile believers weren't required to become Jewish in order to be accepted into the Christian fold, neither should the GLBTs be required to become what the conservative evangelicals think they ought to be before having full rights of participation. Mr. Rogers missed the point of that council. It is true that the Gentiles didn't need circumcision or adherence to all the Jewish customs to be Christians. However, the Council at Jerusalem did "write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood (Acts 15:20)." In other words, to refrain from actions that in their former lives would have seemed normal, therefore harmless, to them. "So I tell you this," wrote Paul, "and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking (Eph. 4:22)." BTW, did you know that if you scramble the letters in "Britney Spears" you get "Presbyterians?" Michael Warner Elder Presbyterian Church of Islip Paganism is dangerous April 24, 2002 It upsets me greatly that a church within our denomination would allow for such horrific pagan ceremonies to take place within its walls. I was a former pagan before I came to full faith in Jesus Christ. It was not "another" way; it was not a good "spiritual path;" it's DANGEROUS. Paganism is not friendly. It's the conduit for demonic forces in this world. It nearly destroyed me. Praise be to Christ, who rescued my soul from the powers of the devil. We, as Christians – and especially those of us called to be elders in Christ's church – need to protect our congregations from such horrible blasphemies. Paganism is a sure and steady path to hell. Love is not "accepting everyone." Love is sharing the truth, and pointing out what is wrong and dangerous. We do not love our children by allowing them to get into danger – we love them by protecting them from dangerous situations. The session of the Bunker Hill church should be disciplined for their lack of love for their congregation ... and for Jesus Christ. John J. O'Sullivan Elder Oak Ridge Presbyterian Church Oak Ridge, N.J. Why require seminary exams? April 24, 2002 I am curious. There seem to be many people who consider it the right of any Presbyterian Christian to serve in an ordained position. They react negatively to any standards being imposed on good, loving people who, in their minds, should be free to serve God in any way that they feel called. Do these people ever say anything about our ordination exams or our seminary requirements? It seems to me that if they argue that everyone has a basic right to serve as a pastor, then to be consistent they would also have to say that we are discriminating against those who have difficulty in the educational system or those who have difficulty taking tests or those who cannot afford a seminary education. Celia Stone Farmville, N.C. The Napoleonic moderator April 24, 2002 I read the April Layman with great interest, especially the moderator's rising fortunes. First he was Paul Revere, now George Washington. It is only a matter of time before he sees himself as Napoleon and starts addressing the Stated Clerk as General Augereau and hoists the Roman Eagle over the Cross. At that point it seems we can easily Baker Act him. Tom Lenfestey GLBT people will not leave church April 24, 2002 In response to Bob Davis' article, "How to deal with defiance," as a voice for the more than half of young members (those 30 and under) of the Presbyterian Church (USA), I can tell you we will not be peacefully withdrawing. We will be saying loud and clear that G-6.0106b is wrong. And those of us who cannot abide by G-6.0106b, we will not abide by it. God does not call us to ask people to leave the church. God calls us to have our arms open and welcoming to all God's children. It is obvious the YADS at General Assembly know and feel this because more than half of YADS voted to remove G-6.010b. Not only this year, but also the past few years. Also, the Presbyterian Youth Connection voted by a large majority that gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered people be allowed to serve in all aspects of the church. The future of the Presbyterian Church (USA) is our future and the young people want the church to be an inclusive church for all. I can guarantee you that we will not be peacefully withdrawing from a church that is important to us, we are staying and we are going to make the Presbyterian Church (USA) a place where all God's children can serve. Brian Cave MLP Liaison for Youth and Young Adults Jan Hus Presbyterian Church New York, N.Y. Ignore God's wrath at your own peril April 24, 2002 It is always interesting when the god of modern theology and human invention collides with the God of Scripture. A recent letter opined that "Jesus Christ loved and tolerated everyone no matter what they did or were or believed in." After so many years of poor theological instruction and mind-numbing sermons, it is little wonder that many in our denomination would accept that assertion. The Jesus of Matthew 23:33 got my attention. "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?" Hardly an example of love and tolerance! Consider Hebrews 10:30-31: "For we know him who said, 'It is mine to avenge; I will repay,'" and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. While using Scripture selectively is unsound scholarship, our tendency is to completely ignore the sections that show God's wrathful and judgmental side. Yet, any fair reading clearly shows that God's love is not a license for "anything goes" and that the laws that define righteous living are not amenable to human modification. God will judge and that judgment will be according to his absolute standard. Hopeful love as offered in a human sense of tolerating "what suits me" will be a poor defense. It is more likely that Christian love exists as the crowning attribute of a whole host of antecedent qualities. Consider 2 Peter 1:4-7. "Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love." Love covers over pettiness and a host of lesser sins. It does not obviate the need for knowledge, self-control, and godliness. John A. Cowan Cartersville, Ga. 'Thank goodness Rogers' term of office is almost over' April 18, 2002 It was our displeasure at a meeting of the Presbytery of South Louisiana on April 6, 2002, to hear the moderator of the General Assembly totally misrepresent what happened at the National Celebration Confessing Churches in Atlanta. According to him, "celebration" certainly did not describe the gathering. Rather, it was a gathering of angry people who are determined to tear the PCUSA apart. When we confronted him after his speech, we told him the only anger we knew of associated with the Atlanta meeting was our anger with him for falsely describing what we (who had been there) knew to have been a loving, uplifting meeting of devoted Christians who love our denomination. His response was to say that he could only report what he had read in the newspapers. What a disappointment it was for us to learn that our "leader" would so abuse his position. Thank goodness his term of office is almost over. Doug and Wanda Watkins Bush, La. Blessing shakes the 'peace and unity' of Sebastian church April 18, 2002 It is truly sad that people like Mr. Blessing are trying to get Sebastian's church entangled in his own political activism within the PCUSA. Apparently not content with the overwhelming voice of PCUSA membership across the country voting out Amendment A, he is trying to subvert the 'unity ' and peace of the churches electing to affirm our constitution by joining the Confessing Church Movement. And so he chose to challenge the right of sessions to do what sessions have a right and obligation to do … insist that those who would be installed in church offices be examined by the session of a church and held to the Book of Order's requirements for ordination – including chastity and non-homosexual practices. Now it's come down to parsing phrases in order to win the goals of these detractors of the CCM: It's now come to haggling over the Sebastian session making affirmations as to some basic tenets of our church and the primacy of God's word on holiness. Seeking to force a rescinding of the Sebastian session's affirmation by claiming that the term "confession" should only be used for statements approved by a two-thirds vote of presbyteries is akin to what the Pharisees spent their time and energy doing in the early church. If Mr. Blessing hates the affirmation made by his session so much, he ought to find a church that is more 'user friendly' to those who support his theological proclivities. The 'peace and unity' the General Assembly proclaimed when it tried to change our Book of Order to allow for 'personal preference' with regard to ordination standards now has lost credibility. Allowing a minority faction in the PCUSA to reconstruct Presbyterian doctrine has moved the church dangerously close to the "abomination of desolation." Joan Archibald A response to 'It's All About Love' April 18, 2002 I have to disagree with Ms. Camp's position that Jesus accepts any behavior in the name of tolerance and love. Rather, he has called us to a higher standard of behavior. He challenged the false piety of the religious establishment, and afflicted the comfortable. Yes, he forgave Mary Magdalene, but told her to sin no more. Her entire life was changed because of her encounter with Him. I think we have forgotten that when we truly encounter Christ, our old selves are fundamentally changed. We are to live in the world, but not of the world. As a church, we are to stand and live by Biblical standards, not worldly standards. Being a Christian is not always a "feel good" experience. What Christ has called us to be is very difficult. It often goes against what society says is acceptable, and it means life-altering choices. Too often, tolerance has come to mean the denial of sin. Scripture is very clear on the issue of homosexuality. Sex is between a man and a women within a marriage. God set it up that way from the beginning. When we start to accept the culture's standards and not Scripture, we find ourselves in a state of confusion. The Scriptures are clear as to acceptable sexual behavior. I agree with Ms. Camp that we should love and welcome gays and lesbians into our churches. We should love the sinner, but condemn the sin. That's my understanding of how Jesus handled people, rather than a blanket acceptance of whatever is in vogue at the time. Tara Savino Warrenville, Ohio Pagan rituals in PCUSA church leaves 'blood boiling' April 18, 2002 I cringed when reading the title of an article posted on 16 April 2002 on The Layman Online entitled "W VA Church Used as a Lab for New Age-Like Religion." By the time I finished reading the article, my blood was boiling. I believe that it is a sacrilege that a Christian church was used for pagan rituals such as those described in the article. This kind of "open-mindedness" should be an embarrassment to all Presbyterians and is the major cause of our denomination's decline. I cannot believe that a former pastor of the congregation, who is now a staff member of the presbytery, would participate in such a disgrace. What were the current pastor and session thinking when they willingly allowed the First Commandment to be broken in their church? And why did the congregation allow it to happen? And did they participate? Call me narrow-minded or just plain old fashioned at age 41, but this sort of permissiveness has no place in the Presbyterian Church (USA) or any other denomination that is founded on the Triune God, that salvation is obtained only through his Son, Jesus Christ, and that the Holy Bible is the inspired Word of God. Stephen Lance Elder Hungarian Presbyterian Church Wharton, N.J. Will Louisville support 'fidelity/chastity' provisions? April 16, 2002 While Amendment A has been badly beaten, I am concerned that the staff in Louisville, including the stated clerk and moderator, will not find it in their hearts to support wholeheartedly the chastity/fidelity provisions of the Book of Order. Unless the staff in Louisville makes a declaration of support, the division in our denomination over sexual issues will continue. Jack Vanderbleek Elder Northeast Presbyterian Church St. Petersburg, Fla. Trust in God in the 'heat of the day' April 16, 2002 This is just a brief note to express my thanks for the words of Peggy Hedden in her editorial in the April 2002 The Layman. Trust in the Lord our God for all that we are and for the living of each day is such a fundamental facet of our faith that we often lose sight of it in the "heat of the day." Thank you, Peggy, for your well-founded insights. They are welcome words of assurance! Murry Bishop North Lake Presbyterian Church The Villages, Fla.
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