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November 2002 letters, page 2 West Jersey presbytery's action 'too much to believe' November 21, 2002 Excuse me? Jesus NOT God? NOT the second holy person of the blessed Trinity? Refresh my memory, do we require ministers to attend seminary or not? Do we have in the whole denomination more than a small handful of laypeople feather-headed enough to buy this line? Before we have the presbyters of West Jersey horsewhipped as heretics, can we ascertain whether or not someone spiked their dinner coffee with LSD? We have to believe that such a decision was not made by wide-awake Presbyterians. The church had a gas leak that night, there were fire trucks racing by making a racket, the clerk miscounted the chads – any of these would be sufficient. But that Presbyterians – elders and pastors – gathered, listened, discussed and voted an ex-WCC bigwig into their presbytery regardless of a pre-Nicene heretical proclamation, that is too much to believe. Noel Anderson Pastor Michillinda Presbyterian Church Pasadena, Calif. West Jersey and the only way to heaven November 21, 2002 I am a deacon at a Confessing Church in Pennsylvania. I cannot believe that they would actually accept someone like this person. She is truly a false prophet, she is a wolf in sheep's clothing. How can one quote the Scripture like she does and others not find it purely blasphemous? How can they even invite her to partake of the Lord's supper? I find this revolting, that they are opening the door to someone who does not profess that the only way to heaven is through the living Christ – Jesus! There is no other way. I will pray for her and her church members. It is not too late for them to ask Christ to forgive them their sin and accept Him as their divine Redeemer and Savior. Eleanor Kassell West Jersey's interim minister questioned November 21, 2002 In my humble opinion, the interim minister of West Jersey, Ms. Dekker, cannot be a Christian. This is what Muslims say about Jesus Christ: The Lord Jesus Christ was only a prophet and nothing more. They also respect "Essa Iban-e-Maryam" in Arabic (Jesus son of Mary in English). They do not accept our Lord as Savior. So, what can be said about Ms. Dekker? I hope and pray that God's people, though less in numbers, will not accept such a so-called minister, interim or otherwise. Bishop Timotheus Nasir The United Presbyterian Church of Pakistan Gujranwala, Pakistan An unhappy camper responds to West Jersey action November 21, 2002 As someone who joined the Presbyterian church late in life, having been raised as a Methodist and becoming a Southern Baptist in college, I have become somewhat used to the idea that to be a Presbyterian minister does not require that you believe the main tenets of the faith. My impression is that if you have good people skills, are well-groomed, articulate and a graduate of an accredited seminary, you can be ordained as a Presbyterian minister regardless of what you believe. Since many Presbyterian lay persons are totally ignorant of the Bible, Church history and Christian theology, what criteria do they have available to themselves to judge a ministerial candidate other than those criteria used to judge the qualifications of an applicant for a corporate manager position or president of the local Rotary Club? I think it helps if we look upon the Presbyterian denomination as a religious organization whose members may or may not have any connection to the Church of Jesus Christ. If we see it as a social club composed of people who 'believe that sort of thing', then perhaps it makes it easier to understand what is going on here. If I sound too cynical, perhaps it is because in our denomination, it is the charismatics who are in the closet. Does that sound like the type of situation that Saint Paul would have been happy with? Keith Johnston Berkeley, Calif. The Democrat Presbyterian Church November 21, 2002 It took awhile, but now I finally understand! We have changed our name to the Democrat Presbyterian Church (USA)! Somehow I must have missed that particular communication when it was sent out to all the churches. A specific response or two... During discussions about the resolution, several NCC delegates lamented the fact that their congregations show little concern over these alleged atrocities by the Bush administration. In fact, polls indicate that the president has received widespread approval for his "war on terror" policies. Implying that such sentiments reflect congregational ignorance, several recommendations attached to the resolution call for educating church members. I would like the NCC to know that the members of the church I serve are quite well educated, and very cognizant of world affairs, not to mention up-to-date on the financial woes of the NCC and the chaos which reigns in our denomination. I'll thank you to keep your "educators" to yourselves. One recommendation urges denominational leaders to "continue to intensify their work to help their congregations understand and express concerns … using this statement as a resource." Several recommendations call on denominational agencies, like the Presbyterian Church (USA)'s Washington Lobby, to work together under NCC coordination to challenge the Bush administration politically by adopting a "covenant" that will advocate for a change in United States public policies. First of all, just why is it the PCUSA has a Washington Lobby again? Was it established to take the gospel of Jesus Christ to our national leaders, or is it there to lend support to liberal socialist causes which catch the fancy of our new Democrat Presbyterian Church (USA)? Is the Washington Lobby more concerned with being politically correct than it is with being Scripturally correct? And lastly, my congregation again is quite conversant with the world situation and the war against terrorism. We're beginning to believe that the NCC and the current leadership of the PCUSA is more concerned with the peace promised by Neville Chamberlain than peace through Jesus Christ. Some delegates expressed their unhappiness that Congress and the American people did not seem greatly influenced by the NCC's public statements. That concern was addressed by United Methodist Church Bishop Melvin Talbert when, on two occasions, he sought assurances that a tag line would be added to the document, asserting that when the NCC issues a statement, it is speaking for 50 million Americans. "50 million people, I said 50 million! I want to be sure that gets in there," he said. What a ludicrous, silly and self-serving statement! This is no more than hubris on parade. If it weren't for the financial support provided by the Democrat Presbyterian Church (USA) the NCC would no longer even exist. I really hate to mix religion and politics, but I suspect the results of the recent U.S. election have created such consternation in socialist circles that they've begun striking out blindly from every bureaucratic position they still hold, however tenuously. The NCC hasn't been taken seriously by anyone of consequence or discernment for some time now; this latest effort will serve only to marginalize the organization even more than it already is. Just one more "good idea" which didn't work out in practice. Rev. Jon F. Jones New Providence Presbyterian Church Salvisa, Ky. NCC speaks for 50 million minus one… November 21, 2002 Concerning United Methodist Church Bishop Melvin Talbert's claim that the NCC resolution raking President Bush's policies on the war on terrorism represents 50 million people, make that 4,999,999. Peter Nelson Thermal, Calif. And delete the names of this couple… November 21, 2002 If the UMC Rev. Bishop Melvin Talbert ("NCC launches scathing attack on Bush administration") implied that the NCC does represent all church members of NCC's constituent churches, please be advised that there are 50 millions minus two whom the NCC can represent. NCC does not speak for me and my wife in this very matter. We support our President 100 percent in his effort to stand up for peace and justice. Rev. and Mrs. Darwin Ng Member at large San Gabriel Presbytery Subtract one more name … November 21, 2002 The statements of the National Council of Churches against the Bush Administration may reflect the views of most of the members of the churches represented, but I doubt it. At least I can say it doesn't represent me. So perhaps the tag line should say it is speaking for 49,999,999 people. The rest of y'all need to let 'em know if you want to be subtracted, too! Somehow I think the actual number is somewhere between the number of delegates to the National Council, and about 5 percent of the membership in their respective denominations. The National Council of Churches is bankrupt and irrelevant. Powell Sykes Pastor, Westminster Presbyterian Church Burlington, N.C. … Scratch millions more November 21, 2002 Since when does the NCC speak for 50 million Americans? The liberal leaders of the PCUSA mistakenly think they represent the views of 2.5 million members but in reality their view is held by fewer than 25 percent of the members. The NCC, WCC and the PCUSA Washington Lobby are left-leaning organizations that are more interested in spreading politically correct garbage than in taking the Word of Christ to the unreached. How long is the PCUSA going to continue to provide major funding for organizations whose views are in tune with those of the Taliban. I thank God every day for our having a Christian president who takes tough stands and sticks with them. How refreshing! Pogo said it well "we have met the enemy and they is us." This describes the PCUSA leadership. We cut funding to missions while throwing money at subversive organizations. The time for a PCUSA wakeup call is well past. Let me add my name to those calling for a house cleaning in Louisville. Bill Arthur Tucson, Ariz. NCC has more volume, less influence November 21, 2002 Concerning your article on the latest National Council of Churches' statements against the Bush Administration, I am reminded of the American tourist who visits another country where none of the natives speak English. The tourist attempts to communicate in English and is of course unsuccessful. Instead of learning the local language, the tourist simply speaks louder, and louder, and louder, until he is red in the face and screaming in English. The NCC has very little influence on most of its "member" congregations because it speaks a different language from them. The NCC speaks the language of left-leaning political activism, whereas most of "its" congregations speak the language of salvation in Christ; to the extent that congregations do talk about politics, they are often moderate or even ... gasp! ... conservative. But instead of recognizing this reality, the NCC keeps increasing the volume of its liberal rhetoric. By now it has reached the red-faced screaming stage, but the congregations continue not to hear or care very much. Instead, I believe most of us in the congregations feel a vague sense of embarassment and unease at the latest NCC rantings, much like we would feel at encountering a crazy person pushing a shopping cart down the street, screaming about whatever. It is impossible to have real communication under such circumstances. John Erthein Pastor, Elderton Presbyterian Church Elderton, Pa. NCC should mix Iraq and tomatoes November 21, 2002 Mr. Edgar from the NCC sure has his hands full. He and his organization have decided that Iraq must be highlighted (to the good) so he faxed the world hoping to have an impact. Perhaps, if he takes the cause of the Taco Bell tomatoes (as requested by Stated Clerk Kirkpatrick) to heart, he can use them to have his needed 'impact' on Saddam. Remember, we support the NCC with our money; faxing and tomatoes. What a waste of time and resources. Ken Tazelaar PCUSA must end subsidy for NCC and WCC November 21, 2002 I know not what course others may take but I will not be giving a dime to the Presbyterian Church USA until they stop subsidizing the heresy at the NCC and WCC. I'll send my money directly to missionaries. Pete Simpson Bloomington, Minn. PCUSA sounds like 'tiny tinkling cymbal' November 21, 2002 The National Council of Churches is fooling itself. The current administration has used the threat of military force to compel the Iraqi regime to accept United Nations inspectors. "War is an act of force to compel the enemy to do your will." Thus wrote Carl von Clausewitz in his 1832 classic, On War. Sun Tzu, a Confucian scholar and soldier, over three thousand years ago, wrote in his seminal work, The Art of War, that the best outcome is to achieve victory without battle. That can happen when a nation has credibility. The anti-war impulse in American history traditionally achieved very little. During the Vietnam War, for instance, about all it accomplished was to wreck the 1968 Democratic Convention and help elect Richard Nixon. The "blood for oil" protests that rose briefly in 1990 following Iraq's invasion of Kuwait slipped into silence when it generally was acknowledged that a certain amount of blood might have to be spilt to maintain access to vital resources like petroleum. So far, protests lodged against the possibility of war by the PCUSA have sounded like the tiny tinkling cymbal. Why? The PCUSA sorely lacks moral authority. A church that cannot bring itself to speak out against partial birth abortion and which spends an inordinate amount of energy arguing over whether or not it is sinful to marry homosexuals has no credible moral authority. Earl H. Tilford, Jr., Ph.D. Grove City College Grove City, Pennsylvania How long will God's patience last? November 21, 2002 Maybe the title of your Nov. 18 article, "PCUSA promotes controversial show, The Vagina Monologues," could have been "PCUSA promotes temple prostitution". How long, O Lord, will your patience last? (I Kings 18:18). Greg Leaman Oostburg Wisc. Unaccountable bureaucrat/radical activists November 21, 2002 The National Council of Churches Hardly Anybody Goes to Anymore represents 50,000,000 people? What have they been smoking? They are unaccountable bureaucrat/radical activists whose existence depends primarily on the majority of the folks in the various pews not knowing what they're up to. Richard A. Aubrey Jr. Flushing, Mich. Monologues meets definition of pornography November 21, 2002 The PCUSA is now advertising a performance of The Vagina Monologues. The description of this performance seems to fully meet the definition (American Heritage dictionary) of pornography: "The presentation of sexually explicit behavior, as in a photograph, intended to arouse sexual excitement." The PCUSA's new motto seems to be "anything for a buck." This is disgusting. When will Presbyterians realize that the PCUSA is beyond hope and form a new denomination that is based on Christian principles and doctrine? Jack Kime Maryville, Ill. Stated clerk isn't only problem November 21, 2002 This is in response to the article on the Nov. 15 Web concerning the petition to recall Mr. Kirkpatrick. Would it not be proper for someone (who knows) to explain what happens if Mr. Kirkpatrick does resign? How is a new Stated Clerk selected? How may we who are supporting a return of the church to the truth of God's Word help make that selection meaningful? While I am basically in agreement with this effort, we must remember the extent of the fall of the PCUSA pre-dates Mr. Kirkpatrick significantly. And while the petition is a meaningful statement, we must not think it will solve all the issues which still need attention to make a true long-term difference. After all, the same PJCs will be in place and the same elders/pastors/churches/presbyteries/synods which are now defiant will still be defiant. How can even God's choice in the stated clerk position make a difference alone? Won't we each still have to rise up under God's leading and deal directly with our denomination's apostasy? Greg Leaman Oostburg, Wisc. Constitutional process can rectify the situation November 21, 2002 While I find the recent actions of Baltimore Presbytery reprehensible, I also have every faith that the constitutional process can and will be used to rectify the situation. I am glad that the Synod of the Mid-Atlantic has begun the process of investigating the irregular actions of this presbytery and I am confident that they will be able to deal with the situation. I believe that it is time for those officers who can no longer in good conscience abide by their ordination vows to peaceably withdraw. Brian Ahier The Dalles, Ore. Vestments of leadership have turned to foil and crepe November 13, 2002 It is apparent that there is an abysmal absence of leadership in the denomination. Unfortunately, though we always hope to the contrary, a willingness to serve, even getting elected, doesn't magically confer leadership. A leader, as we have all recently observed on the national stage, takes a stand, makes the tough decisions and takes the punches. On the other hand, the denomination's elected leaders have either shirked or cowered from their responsibilities to enforce the denomination's constitution. They have equivocated, dismissed the deeply held concerns of the faithful and avoided what many of us had viewed as solemn obligations. They have decided to ignore the righteous calls and prophetic acts of people who love the Presbyterian tradition in favor of others who, despite their vows, openly boast that they would tear it down and replace it with what can arguably be described as spiritual anarchy. Do they realize that when they stopped enforcing the denomination's constitution, the denomination literally ceased to exist? It was our Compact, our Charter, our Code. Think about that. What would we have if our nation's leaders did the same? Allowing for a miracle, don't expect a change of heart. This is politics, not religion, and it is too late for these politicians to reverse their positions. Though they and we may not yet know it, they have truly lost, and will never reclaim, the moral high ground attendant to their offices that they should have stewarded faithfully over every other responsibility. The mantle of moderator, the vestments of stated clerk, are tarnished, corroded, torn and soiled. What was once bright gold and finest silk – their symbolism of apostleship, their vision of holiness in servitude, their promise of reward for faithfulness – is turned to foil and crepe. Their offices are like cheap decorations on a tree. While some glory in those decorations, may the rest of us remain humbled by the meaning of the tree. Jack O'Brien Pittsburgh, Pa. There's no 'Word' in their legal vocabulary November 13, 2002 If lawyers Peter Oddliefson and Doug Nave are right, the Presbyterian goose is cooked and they will make a meal of it. There's no way to enforce any Book of Order language if it's all slippery, temporal, borderless and subject to auto-deconstruction. That's very postmodern of them to say so. Oddliefson and Nave are saying that Presbyterians may rightly embrace homosexual practice as chaste because the Presbyterian language game lacks models of reference outside of those we continuously create, demolish and remodel. If indeed there's no Word that precedes or transcends the parochial "us," then Presbyterians are left to their own devices. Gary Starkey Yakima, Wash. 1984 by the Covenant Network November 13, 2002 So the Covenant Network is planting its flag as the "center" of the PCUSA? Do you hear it? Can you sense it? Its Orwell's classic 1984 played out in the 2002 PCUSA. It's the Big Lie and the remaking of it into a "Truth." It's a maxim that whomever controls "meaning" controls the debate. This is an easy tactic to spot and to disarm. LIE #1 " ... the (Covenant Network) represents the broad center of the church and will continue to do so." TRUTH: The presbyteries have voted in INCREASING majorities to reject the homosexual agenda for ordination in the church. The last margin exceeded 74% which means the so-called "Covenant center" is, in fact, the extreme and radicalizing fringe. LIE #2: "... The Covenant Network is committed to removal of G-6.0106b … or any other impediment to ordination. We are going to build consensus." TRUTH: There is no "Covenant consensus" short of mainstream capitulation to their anti-Biblical demands. To suggest there is a middle way is disingenuous if not outright deception. LIE #3: "... We believe the denomination needs a progressive theology." TRUTH: Dry rot is a progressive disease, not a theology. There is no such theology except as a pretext to achieving the wholesale revision of the Bible. By labeling it "progressive," the CN adherents lay claim to a seemingly "forward movement" which is nothing less than a downward spiral corrupting the word of God. LIE #4: Eugene Bay called the supporters of the denomination's ordination standards "tight lipped … mean spirited … rigid … pharisaic … narrow … legalistic … self-righteous … itsy-bitsy people." TRUTH: Bay is talking about YOU. The center of this church is none of these things. The demonizing of the mainstream is designed to stifle your witness, to diminish your loving reprovals and to cow you into acquiescence. Remember, when Kruschev said "peace," he meant the ultimate triumph of communism. When an American church leftist says "progressive" he means an idea designed to destroy the very fabric of Christianity to conform it to his personal, worldly goals. When Bay uses the tactics of 1984, extols sin as a "good" and calls the fringe a "center," he is engaged in the politics of deception. Just listen carefully and mentally "flip" his words. Once you do that, his sad game plan becomes entirely too obvious. Dan Greenblat San Diego When will right-thinking people learn November 13, 2002 When will we ever learn? When do you think the right-thinking people of PCUSA will come together and carry on the work the Lord left us to do and spread the Gospel to all the world? I am so tired of not feeling good about giving my money to the church in which I am a member. I love our local congregation BUT when we take up the offerings I have a terrible feeling of estrangement. This precludes me from giving with a cheerful heart. I know the money I give is not dedicated to serving the living and true God in Christ Jesus but to serving the "religious" factions that govern our local congregation. The offerings we take up are predestined to an agenda that precludes the Gospel of Jesus and serves a social-political agenda we have no control over. I am afraid it goes to liberal agendas, including clinics that are pro-abortion, political agendas that oppose our own government and liberal social gospel missionaries instead of to missionaries who truly preach the Gospel. But I cannot tell those who give faithfully for fear of being labeled a troublemaker. Should we just sit back and say, "Oh, well, as long as I give faithfully God will disperse it..." Isn't this checking our brains at the front door? I like the way PCA handles their missions program and think we, as local congregations, should do the same. Glenda Smith PCUSA is rapidly making itself irrelevant November 13, 2002 The comments of people like the Rev. Curtis Jones make me more certain that my recent resignation from the Presbyterian Church (USA) was the correct decision. The PCUSA is rapidly making itself irrelevant as a Christian denomination. Jones' contention that homosexuality is "God's plan" is ludicrous. His remarks that President Bush is lying about the dangers of Iraq and that the President is only interested in oil is preposterous – witness the unanimous decision of the UN Security Council that includes Syria, previously one of Iraq's staunchest allies, supporting the U.S. position. The greatest danger not only to the PCUSA, but also to Christianity, is the increasingly socialistic, ultra-liberal, non-Biblical, anti-Christian positions taken by some members the church generally and denominations like the UCC and lately the PCUSA. "Whatever works" to support such an agenda is not the message of Christ. Jack Klime Maryville, Ill.
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