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| August
2004 letters Archives of letters to the editor  |
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is becoming the church at Thyatira August 30, 2004 It is becoming obvious that the PCUSA is, in many ways, becoming the Church at Thyatira (Rev. 2:18-28). Our denominational leaders "tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols." In this case, Jezebel is the prevailing secular culture. The "food sacrificed to idols" is the false teaching as exhibited by the Accra "Confession." The hope for our denomination is found in verses 24-26: "But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden. Only hold fast what you have until I come. The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations ..." Chip Blackshear, elder Grace Presbyterian Church Lafayette, La. Concerning homosexual lifestyle: 'I am with God's point of view' August 30, 2004 I have been active with you for some number of years and was in the Presbyterian Church for over 33 years. I became disenchanted with the approach taken by the main church, the General Assembly, and the Baltimore Presbytery a number of years ago and left the church in 1999. The very fact that the church "courted" the homosexual community for close to 20 years tells me they realistically deserve what they get at this point. The church "studied" the homosexual issue for three consecutive five-year periods, which made me ill. God, in his infinite wisdom, has stated in several places in the Old Testament, and also in the New Testament, that this type of activity is a grievous sin. For the Presbyterian Church to spend the money for at least three major studies is also a sin, in my view. While I commend your activities in attempting to be the conscience of the church, I am now at the point of no return – I cannot support further wasted effort in attempting to salvage the unsalvageable. When the Presbyterian Church changes its direction, and it will have to decide that on its own, the nation's Defense Shield will have been in operation for a millennium. I am truly sorry that I can no longer support a church that considers the possibility that homosexual activity "might" have redeeming qualities as an alternate lifestyle. God does not believe so, and I am with God's point of view. Please note that I have condemned the lifestyle and the activity surrounding it, but I do not condemn the person, male or female. They are sinners that can obtain forgiveness through confessing their sin, and repenting that sin. Unfortunately, they do not see it as a sin and will therefore spend eternity in hell. Sewell Marsh Heathsville, Va. Love between two persons of the same sex may be mutual, affirming, equal August 30, 2004 Robert A.J. Gagnon's latest letter is most interesting. He notes: "You agree that you must always and indefinitely 'hear and respect all voices,' including those strenuously advocating acceptance of homosexual behavior and – if we follow the logic of the argument – any other sinful offense (incest, bigamy, adultery, pedophilia, bestiality, racism, Nazi ideology, etc.) since 'unity cannot be attained if the voices of some members of the body are ignored.'" He makes a good point in this regard. However, I will note that in hearing all voices one uses what Christ taught us about love and respect for others. Does incest, bigamy, adultery, pedophilia, bestiality, racism and Nazi ideology reflect the love of Christ and to others? Of course not. They all involve power or disrespect over the other person or entity that is weaker. On the other hand, love between two persons of the same sex may be mutual and affirming and equal. And if that is the case, I fail to see the relevance or similarity. I think the Genesis account says it well where Adam and Eve decide to know better than God and try to have power over God. We know what a failure that was. Unfortunately this sin continues through the ages where humanity tries to assert power over God at times and in many cases each other. That is the sin that is the original sin and curse we all share. And it is the curse we must not extend to others as best we can with the grace of Jesus and God. So my question to Mr. Gagnon and others continues to be how can the mutual love and affection between two adults of the same sex equate to incest, bigamy, adultery, pedophilia, bestiality, racism, and Nazi ideology? The fact is they are not the same. And I as a gay man and Christian stand with Mr. Gagnon in condemning incest, bigamy, adultery, pedophilia, bestiality, racism and Nazi ideology. Earl C. Apel, deacon Mount Auburn Presbyterian Church Cincinnati, Ohio Public arena is not to be considered a religious arena August 30, 2004 When are we going to get it right? The public arena is not to be considered a religious arena, but rather a secularist one. We Christians should not be offended by this case. Indeed, we should be heartened. A governmental entity that shows itself to be aligned with one religion or another is subject to just what Great Falls, S.C., received. What would we think if prayers were prayed in a Jewish, Wicca, Buddhist, Islamic or other faith practice? We'd be mad as can be and we'd rise up to have it stopped. The Constitution and the laws of this country are made to protect the minority, because the majority can protect itself and abuse the minorities. David D. Duncan, elder Swannanoa, N.C. Black Mountain Presbyterian Church G.A. action on Israel was a mistake August 30, 2004 We agree with this petition. We need to have another meeting and reconsider this outrageous position that the church took when it voted on the Israel divestment issue. We are being seen as anti-Semitic. What a terrible mistake. Perhaps we will have to make it very clear when we give our tithe that it is only to go to our local church! Please reconsider this! Thank you for your help. Lynn and Al McLaughlin Camarillo, Calif. Family will not associate with Presbyterian church again August 30, 2004 Your article is being circulated all across the web and around the world by the true believers in Yehshua Jesus to demonstrate exactly what the Lord Jesus Christ so hated – the outright stupidity, pride, arrogance, hypocritical, divisive, Pharisee and Sadducee mentality that does anything but demonstrate the truth, revelation and knowledge of the Word of God and the promise to Abraham and his lineage. Besides your take on what you refer to as "Christian Zionism," other errors being propagated by this denomination, such as the abomination against the Lord God of supporting the homosexual lifestyle, any and all former connections to the Presbyterian church are now dissolved by my family and we will never step foot in nor associate with this devilish denomination again. I pray that the Lord will have mercy on your souls and cause you to come to true saving grace through his precious blood shed for you on the cross, and that his Holy Spirit will have mercy upon you and give you wisdom, discernment and insight into the truth of his Holy Scriptures. May God have mercy on your souls. Jackie Miller Conservatives pick Republicans over Jesus August 30, 2004 This is in response to the Aug 27 letter by Burton Schindler, but it looks like his opinion on the General Assembly's resolution condemning the Iraq war is nearly universal at The Layman. And it's also dead wrong. Let's see ... where have we heard that "giving aid and comfort to the enemy" phrase before? Oh yeah, to try to silence critics of the Vietnam war in the '70s. How many more names did such people put on the Vietnam wall? How many more names do the people at The Layman want to see on a future Iraq war memorial? The resolution condemns the actions of the Bush administration, and the fact that you have to pretend that it attacks the soldiers in some way only shows that the resolution is correct. I don't know why the church insists on supporting any Republican it comes across, no matter how deceitful and immoral he is. We didn't go to war to free the Iraqi people. We went because Saddam was supposed to be a grave and growing threat to national security. Clearly he wasn't. He wouldn't have been even if he had WMD. We had him very well contained and under close watch, and he was not a danger to our country – until Bush started lying to us. When the choice is between Jesus and Republicans, why do conservative Christians always side with Republicans? Hey, I hear Bush wants more tax cuts for the rich. That should please readers of the book of Acts. Phil Hamer Where is the PCUSA going? August 30, 2004 Re the article [California court rules against Methodist law on church property]: Of course we all know that the provisions in the PCUSA Book of Order (G.80201) are subject to individual church interpretation, just as are the ones prohibiting ordination of practicing homosexuals. Where's the question, do what we want, to heck with the PCUSA and their rules. Re the article [More Light 'sadomasochist' on presbytery committee considering pulpit candidates] God help us. This guy is not only a member of a Presbyterian Church but also on a committee passing on would-be ministerial candidates? Where is the church going? I'm afraid I know. Dick Carter, inactive elder Covenant Presbyterian Church Amarillo, Texas What Davidson sees as bias, may appear to others as great perspective August 27, 2004 It seems that Mr. Davidson points to an intriguing issue having to do with the reporting found in The Layman. Mr. Davidson closes his letter by stating: "I hope that I have impressed on you the fact that sometimes you do not do objective reporting. Please try to do unbiased reporting in your paper." Is he implying that other Presbyterian news sources are not biased? I argue that you will find that certain news outlets toe the denominational line, others tend to reflect a more liberal view point, while The Layman tends to reflect a conservative viewpoint. Of course all of this is up for debate, but the idea that The Layman (or any other news source) is capable of doing unbiased news reporting is absurd. I assume that Mr. Davidson's objection to the more conservative tendencies of The Layman plays a large role in his statements. While I might disagree with The Layman's interpretations of these events, the basic facts do check out: Dr. Githii's hotel was far away, he received $200 for food and found it too little, he could not speak from the podium. Personally, I have never met Dr. Githii nor did I attend G.A. The only way I would have even known about this man was through the pages of The Layman. Would any of the other news outlets picked up on this issue? Would they have covered re-Imaginers or Gay activists? Hard to say, though now they may be forced into doing so because of the "biased" journalists from The Layman. (In terms of basic journalism 101, this is called "getting scooped.") The Layman is merely exercising the wonderful freedom of the press in writing articles that might offend some, but not others. What appears to you as bias, may appear to someone else as great perspective. On the other hand, Mr. Davidson, don't forget that exclusion is as much a form of bias as anything else. Nick Lincoln Richmond, Va. Who is influencing whom more: the church or the sexual offender? August 27, 2004 I want to thank Rev. Alison Bucklin for her thoughtful Aug. 20 letter, "Pastor disagrees with Gagnon's pessimistic analysis of task force report." Rev. Bucklin was responding to my piece in The Layman, "Open letter: Task Force report distorts unity/purity message of Ephesians," posted on June 26. She was concerned that by temporarily removing from fellowship a person engaged in serial unrepentant same-sex intercourse we might do more harm than good. She says "our approach should be the one most likely to achieve the ultimate goal." I share Rev. Bucklin's basic concern. In another piece in The Layman, "Robert Gagnon to Stacy Johnson: Two positions on homosexual practice, not six," posted on Aug. 6, I provide a similar kind of qualification under the section "Peripheral concerns about the 1978 Definitive Guidance: Membership":
I am not sure if Rev. Bucklin wants to do away with church discipline completely or just be extremely cautious about implementing it. Yes, Jesus associated with tax collectors and other sinners. But do we really want to do away with the instructions for church discipline in Matt. 18:15-20, to say nothing of 1 Cor. 5? I would mildly caution Rev. Bucklin or any others to be careful about exempting sexual offenses from church discipline, particularly on the basis that Paul included other vices in the vice lists in 1 Cor. 5:10-11 and 6:9-10 that we seem to be ignoring. The church at Corinth had lots of problems but at one point only, a case of adult consensual incest, did Paul recommend temporary disfellowship. There are a number of reasons for this. First, Paul believed, undoubtedly in agreement with Jesus, that sexual sins affect the body holistically and therefore are very serious offenses (1 Cor. 6:15-20). Second, immoral acts of sexual intercourse are by their very nature conspicuous and easily identifiable, committed by only a limited segment of the population, and tend toward being self-affirming forms of conduct. If people are going to be evicted for greed or reviling, the cases would have to be easily provable, particularly deplorable, repeated, and self-affirming instances. It may look like sexual offenders are being singled out for severe discipline when the reality is that sexual sins are more likely to characterized by unrepentance (there are very few "self-affirming" greedy people, thieves, drunkards, and violent people). Third, because of the intensely pleasurable character of sexual intercourse, exempting from discipline all immoral acts of sexual intercourse would have a particularly pernicious impact on the moral standards of the community of faith. Rev. Bucklin suggests that it is not likely that a "weaker brother" would engage in the same sexual act. But Paul's leaven analogy ("a little leaven leavens the whole batch of dough") in 1 Cor. 5:6-8 does not depend on the assumption that many at Corinth would immediately begin having sex with their mother or father if the church tolerated incest. Rather, there would be erosion over time of any sexual standards or structural prerequisites. Fourth, there is no virtue to being more consistently disobedient to the will of God. And, as inconsistent as the church might be, we can all think of serious offenses, including sexual ones (hopefully man-mother incest among them), that even the PCUSA might consider temporary disfellowship or postponing of membership. Ironically, public opposition to homosexual practice will eventually become such an offense (and perhaps already has in some individual "More Light" churches). Fifth and finally, let us not forget that temporary church discipline itself, when conducted appropriately (i.e. with humility, self-introspection, concern, and mourning), has the ultimate redemption of the offender in view, as Paul's remark about saving the incestuous man's "spirit on the day of the Lord" indicates (1 Cor. 5:5). In closing, let me remind readers what you sign off to, if you endorse the Task Force interim report:
Robert A. J. Gagnon Associate Professor of New Testament Pittsburgh Theological Seminary Pittsburgh, Pa. A few words on the GA: 'despicable,' 'cowardly,' 'degrading' August 27, 2004 May we offer a few words concerning the actions of recent General assembly?
Burton Schindler Bella Vista, Ariz. Court decision offers comfort to the enemies of Christ and of this nation August 27, 2004 If Ms. Wynne would have prayers offered to a cafeteria of deities, as opposed to the One Deity, at meetings of the town council of Great Falls, S.C., she should organize her fellow "wiccans" and elect someone who would care to pray in the name of a god that is not. The Christian members of the town council pray to the "God who is," the great "I Am" of the Bible, when they pray in the name of his son Jesus Christ. Apparently, Great Falls keeps electing Christians, and those darn Christians keep praying in the name of the Lord. The action of the U.S. 4th Circuit Court of Appeals is wrong because it seeks to impair the free practice of the faith of those elected to the Great Falls town council. I would suspect that were Ms. Wynne to get herself elected, and the town council graciously afforded her the opportunity to pray in the name of what ever spirit or power she misguidedly believes in, there would be but one voice speaking the "Amen" to her prayer. What actions like that of the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals accomplish is the comfort of the enemies of Christ and of this nation. For if the voices of Christians can be silenced by court edicts, it won't be long before courts will seek to compel Christian officials like the town council of Great Falls, S.C., to respond to prayers to Krishna, or Allah, lest their non-support for non-Christian prayer be construed as a "passive-aggressive" attempt to establish Christianity. The Ayatollahs must love our judges! Jim Wilken, pastor First Presbyterian Church Marion, N.C. Kirkpatrick: Your job security does not depend on the economy August 27, 2004 Okay, Cliff. I wasn't too offended when you and your minions called me a war criminal and forced me to apologize for the crimes at Abu Grahib. Nor was I all that bent out of shape when you implied that supporting the war in Iraq also made me, albeit indirectly, a war criminal. But now, the fact that I am a capitalist makes me the spawn of Satan? Well, then call me the Devil. I know that as a pastor, missionary, church-type guy you haven't had to hold down a real job in quite some time. Unlike most people in this country, your job security does not depend on the economy or the stock market. Because of your job title and education, you are pretty much guaranteed a job in any one of 11,000 congregations pending their approval. I wouldn't suspect that capitalism plays much of a role in your life. However, there are millions of us, those you would denounce as "capitalists," who work hard every day for corporations, companies and small businesses. I can look out my window and see people going to work each day at places like these. But alas, they are really working for Satan because the "capitalist" pigs that run the companies are exploiting them. I am sure you would all have us working on subsistance farms on some hippy commune, hugging trees and helping one another. Well, when you take off that suit and tie, refuse your salary (made possible by the donations of evil "capitalists" like me), and get to back breaking work, I'd be happy to follow. Until then, I'll be happy to make money because my company makes money. Why don't you just stick to religion? I'll stick to what I know: working hard for an income so that my family and I can prosper with God's blessing. Don't worry, I'll be thinking of you when I use my ill-gotten "capitalist" gain to support my local church. Stew Bryant Charlotte, N.C. It wasn't discrimination, it was shameful treatment August 27, 2004 A couple of quick points to Mr. Davidson. It was not a question of discrimination, it was a question of shabby and shameful treatment. I am not certain of the source for Mr. Davidson's information. The source for my information was Dr. Githii himself. He may have in fact had access to shuttle transportation. Simple courtesy would have mandated that he be told that. He was not. He also was not told that his black-bordered credential entitled him to group meals. You claim he was given the same expense money as everyone else. Wrong. The only funds he had were what he brought with him personally. And as for just being another commissioner, that is a specious argument. He is the moderator of a 4.2 million member faithful Presbyterian Church who was personally invited to the 216th General Assembly by Moderator Andrews. Trying to pretend anything else just compounds the insulting and inhospitable behavior. Trying to justify bad behavior doesn't do anything but make it worse. This man was treated shamefully. Rev. James C. Yearsley Pittsburgh, Pa. Kirkpatrick and WARC should look in mirror for villains August 26, 2004 Stated Clerk Clifton Kirkpatrick and the "World Alliance of Relativist Churches" as usual are long on propaganda and short on facts. Otherwise, when they were looking for villains they would have used a mirror. In fact, they would have to take on and defeat the corrupt anti-capitalist regimes that keep their people in poverty. We already know they have no stomach for taking on tyrants. They prefer to denigrate the only nations that produce wealth. The only nations that go to the aid of those in need. Maybe Kirkpatrick and his fellow anti-capitalists think it is only a coincidence that the wealthiest nations are democracies (and capitalist)? Michael Novak in his book On Cultivating Liberty Reflections on Moral Ecology alluded to Reinhold Niebuhr's statement: The moral strengths of citizens make a democracy (and capitalism) possible; their moral weaknesses make democracy (and capitalism) necessary. Kirkpatrick should take this to heart if he really wants to help those in the third world and provide them with a successful economic model. John Thomas Episcopal rector: Please pray for us, while we pray for you August 26, 2004 A million thanks to The Presbyterian Lay Committee for its words of support to those of us in the Episcopal Church so deeply grieved over our National Convention's decisions regarding the blessing of same-sex unions and the confirmation as bishop of a non-celibate gay man. The vast majority of Episcopalians in America, and our brothers and sisters in the larger Anglican Communion, are horribly shocked that our National Church could ever have arrived at such a decision. Many of us, through the American Anglican Council, are working diligently to create a strong network of orthodox parishes that can reclaim the church in its Biblical and historic identity. Please continue to pray for us as we pray that you will not follow such at destructive path. God's Blessings! Fr. Eric D. Dudley, rector St. John's Episcopal Church Tallahassee, Fla. 'May our God protect his holy name' August 26, 2004 As your readers ponder the article, Wiccan wins case outlawing 'Jesus' prayers at town meetings, (Aug. 26th; The Layman Online), it is wise to remember tolerance of all religions does not mandate equivalent validity. And for those who would say it is very humane to respect all who have sincere beliefs of any sort, remember God has some words concerning what/Who is truly holy. Ezekiel 26: 20 "And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, ... 22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, Oh house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, ... which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes." This is not strictly an Old Testament matter either. God's holiness transcends all time. We can be as guilty of profaning his holiness as Israel was. I am sincerely convinced that allowing equal validity to any religion (including the Wiccan variety) is not what is intended by our God when he directs us through Paul, "... I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings." (I Cor. 9:22b,23). Nor can any other part of God's Word be used to counter the need to keep the one true God's "religion" (read relationship) at the heart of any prosperous generation. Think hard about this question. From what we know of Paul, what would his reaction to this ruling have been? Of course, this action has nothing directly to do with the PCUSA. However, it must be recognized as a need for prayer and fortitude for us all. Likewise, neither can our nation continue to be brainwashed into accepting that "The clearest command of the Establishment Clause is that one religious denomination cannot be officially preferred over another." The establishment clause was to prevent "a church of America" from becoming like the Church of England from which many, many believers had to flee in the 16 and 1700s. Denomination? No. May our God protect his holy name even if he has to do it as he did with Israel. It was not a pleasant experience for Israel. If/when he does so with our floundering nation, gentle people, do you think it will be for us? Pray and be strong in what we know to be the truth! Greg Leaman Sheboygan County, Wisc. PCUSA leadership compared to children playing 'grownup' August 26, 2004 Not long after I became a Presbyterian, I began to sense I was living in a highly dysfunctional family watching some of its members – far too many holding leadership positions – whose stunted emotional, mental and spiritual development has left them stuck in adolescence. They seem unwilling or unable to move on to maturity. Their actions remind me of children playing "grownup" – all show and no substance:
So, when I read Nancy Forsyth's letter I was glad to realize that I was not the only one who thought this – only her she was able to articulate it so well. I suppose that comes from her training in psychology. Which makes me wonder – and I could be wrong about this and maybe Mrs. Forsyth could correct me – but it seems to me that the technical term for what we are seeing in the PCUSA today must be "the inmates are running the asylum." How I long for God's faithful people to find the backbone to rise us and say "Enough is enough!" Rev. Bill Pawson Westminster Community Church Canton, Ohio A Confessing Church Problems with capitalism come from living in a fallen world August 26, 2004 Capitalism is responsible for many freedoms and an increasing standard of living around the world. Oh the horrors! Is it without problems? Of course not. But it's not the system per se. It is the fact that we live in a fallen world. The alternative would be less freedom and more power concentrated given to fewer sinners, as opposed to all sinners. We've seen the results of that. It isn't pretty. So let's all be equally poor and miserable. Let's vote against capitalism. Let's give away our economic freedom and the right to enjoy the fruit of our labors. Geoff Robinson Haddon Heights, N.J. Githii was not discriminated against. He was simply a commissioner. August 26, 2004 In the last issue of The Layman dated July 2004, there are several issues with which I take exception. First of all, I disagree with some items in the article on the Rev. Dr. David F. Githii. Dr. Githii was reported as being shunned by the PCUSA at the 216th General Assembly when he was not able to speak at the central podium. It must be pointed out that Dr. Githii had already voluntarily severed the Presbyterian Church of East Africa's mission partnership with the National Capital Presbytery. Therefore, he relinquished his authoritative position in the General Assembly and it was an absolutely correct decision to not let him speak from the podium. He simply was another commissioner to the assembly. Further, Dr. Githii was upset that he was assigned to a hotel some distance from the Convention Center. It was clearly stated that hotel assignments were based on the order in which commissioners originally signed up to attend the General Assembly. There were eight hotels where commissioners were housed while in Richmond. All of these hotels were serviced by shuttle buses, except the hotel directly across the street from the Convention Center. Dr. Githii was accorded exactly the same courtesies extended to all other commissioners regarding his hotel assignment. Further, Dr. Githii was upset that he didn't receive more expense money for meals and incidental expenses. Each commissioner received a set rate for expenses over and above the cost of the hotel room, included meals and transportation costs. As a commissioner, Dr. Githii received exactly the same rate of expense money as every other commissioner – no more and no less. Any amount of money that a commissioner spent over and above this established amount was the responsibility of that commissioner. Dr. Githii was not discriminated against in any way regarding his expense money. These three items should have been explained through an editor's note at the end of the article. This was not done. Therefore, the article gave the wrong impression of what actually happened regarding Dr. Githii. The article entitled "Staying Alive: Re-Imaginers gather" should not have been given such a spread in the paper. If a group of radical people want to bless a god other than our one true God, this is their privilege, but this article should not be given any space in a Presbyterian paper as an issue, or even a side issue, of the General Assembly. Another article, titled "Homosexual activists, allies hold pre-worship rally," gives the impression that these sign-holding people cheered, shouted and tried to intimidate the commissioners as they entered the Coliseum for the opening worship service. Such was not the case. There was a small group of possibly 100 activists who stood there with signs as the commissioners walked past. They were quiet and were simply there making their presence known. This is not what the article implies. I hope that I have impressed on you the fact that sometimes you do not do objective reporting. Please try to do unbiased reporting in your paper. Frank C. Davidson Pulaski, Pa. No socialistic society has achieved the goals our socialist friends promote August 26, 2004 Perhaps the remake of the Manchurian Candidate and Kirkpatrick might be on to something (wink, wink). Capitalism does not make everyone an economic equal to everyone else. Surely no rational person in the present could argue against this point. I think we all ought to embrace socialism for that is precisely the end result, equality (wink, wink). The problem is (seriously now) that virtually everyone ends up being poor. And in fact, if you consider the great disparity between the vast quantity of the masses and the quality of their lives, over against the incredible wealth and power of the elite few, I wonder if you couldn't make the case that the disparity is relatively greater under socialist systems. Not only is this seen in economic terms, it also is extant in terms of suffering. However, I would not allow that this may be construed to mean that totally "unrestrained" capitalism isn't without its inherent dangers and evils. Of the many sociology courses (each and everyone taught from a decidedly socialist point of view and which brooked little tolerance with any other) I took as an undergraduate in the 1990s, I kept waiting for someone to, if capitalism was such an egregious evil, give me one good example of a socialist system or society in which phantom equality and mutual forbearance and concern reigned supreme. I am still looking and waiting. As far as I know or have been shown, no socialistic society of any significant size or type has ever emerged and achieved the lofty and elusive goals our socialist friends promote. The very things that they criticize capitalists for, namely power and greed, are precisely the very things that contributed to the material good shortages in the former Soviet Union and to the countless and needless deaths and the faceless victims of poverty, disease and misery those poor people suffered. If the socialist systems of the world are not only inherently better, but also in real terms, the fact that those who ardently promulgate socialist ideology do not immigrate to such socialist nations tells me something is amiss. If those systems are so great, and if they are so unhappy and miserable here with what we have, why don't they just move there and leave us alone? One of the Church's great challenges is to work against power and greed and the unbridled materialism and hedonism that indeed put our nation at risk of God's wrath and judgment. Jesus himself exposed and preached against these dangers in no uncertain terms. But the point is not to send to the trash heap a system that provides a better way of life for so many, but to continually be about the business of tending to the "poor, widow, orphan and the transient." It is a Biblical command. As far as socialism goes, Kirkpatrick and those like him are more than welcome to go somewhere else and give it a try. Please don't trash what we've got going. If you want a Biblical commentary on what some consider the first Christian try at socialism, take a look at the early Church as detailed in Acts. Socialism lasted only for a couple of chapters before it all fell apart. The culprit? Greed. One can, without much difficulty, make the case that the Biblical conclusion is that socialism cannot work, or at least did not, for as far as I know any subsequent similar experiment did not happen (or at least if it did, we have no record of it). Is there anything else Kirkpatrick is going to stand up for that distresses us so? If history is any gage, the answer is yes. But what next? Steven Seng GA actions on Israel show their ignorance of Bible and history August 26, 2004 I would be happy to sign a petition to advise the commissioners to rescind their vote approving divesting stock from companies investing in Israel. This hurtful action, showing they blame Israel for the conflict in the Palestine, shows ignorance of the Bible and of all the history of the conflict and lack of understanding about who has generally been the instigators of the violence. What is wrong with the leaders of the PCUSA? I'd say what is wrong is that we have the wrong leaders in our denomination. Many of their previous agendas, votes and actions the last few years show clearly that they do not believe the Bible is the inspired word of God nor do they respect the doctrines of the church. Is there any way to get these people out of leadership? It's very frustrating and I am ashamed that my denomination is taking such God dishonoring stands on important issues. I do belong to a PCUSA church that has remained doctrinally sound but fear that at some point these issues will come to haunt even our conservative church. I do receive The Layman and I do support your organization. What else can I do? Sonja Wullschleger |
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