August 2004 letters, page 2 Archives of letters to the editor

PCUSA attacks on Israel and other Christians won't harm them August 26, 2004 I can no longer consider the PCUSA a Christian church by any stretch of the term. You may continue your attacks on Israel and now attack the real Christian churches by calling them Zionist and denouncing us, but you cannot in anyway harm us. You see we serve the God of the Holy Bible and he alone has power over us. By taking on Israel and the Church of God you have doomed yourselves. May the Lord rebuke you. Bob Elliott Congregation shows courage to challenge oppressive ecclesiastical provision August 25, 2004 Your report of the property case involving St. Luke's reveals several significant issues. First, it must have taken great courage on that congregation's part to challenge its powerful denominational hierarchy over an archaic yet oppressive ecclesiastical provision. Unfortunately, our PCUSA congregations seem more sheepish, willing to pay the extortion rather than pursue real justice. Second, this case shows that outside the narrow confines of our Presbyterian family, sound thinking still exists. At least some civil courts recognize how silly it is to presume ownership over something others have paid for, labored over and regularly use. Finally, for those congregations who choose to remain living under these property provisions, I would encourage more creative thinking about the responsibilities of ownership. Investigate state laws and hold judicatories accountable for both the benefits and the costs of property ownership! Quite frankly, it seems time to remove G-8.0201 from the Book of Order unless judicatories are willing to raise per capita enough to cover the lawful expenses of all the property they supposedly own. Carl Grosse First Presbyterian Church Farmington, Minn. Kirkpatrick condemns capitalism while feeding from its trough August 25, 2004 Stated Clerk Clifton Kirkpatrick and his fellow ice-cream socialists in the PCUSA, WARC, WCC and NCC indulge in an old and expected hypocrisy. They wring their hands over the evils of captialism, all the while feeding comfortably at the trough. They need a lesson like that taught George Bailey in It's a Wonderful Life – they need to be shown a world devoid of the missions, schools, food pantries, orphanages, free clinics, hospitals, disaster relief, medical research, seminaries, graduate schools and cushy jobs with wealthy denominations that are funded by this dreadful economic system. Then they need to get real jobs. Steve Jones, elder Kokomo, Ind. The word 'elder' connotes maturity and wisdom August 25, 2004 Nancy Forsyth's viewpoint has been reinforced by the unfortunate attitude of Ed Kross. He ends his letter by stating that we should "… be willing to carry around the death of Jesus so that the world might know life." How true – but what makes Pastor Kross and others like him think that we could even dream of proclaiming Jesus Christ to the world today, if not for the incredible sacrifices of past generations? Those who died (well) in wars that kept our country and others free did so out of selfless attitudes that emulated Christ himself. Many have died in other countries to give freedom to those who could not fight for themselves. If this is not "carrying around the death of Jesus," I don't know what is. It's time we started to listen to the voices of maturity, like Mrs. Forsyth and Mr. William Allison. A seminary education – even a doctorate – does not create wisdom. Remember that the word "elder" connotes maturity and wisdom. Looks like the GA is sadly lacking in those qualities. Kay Brooks Irving, Texas What exactly is an 'elder deacon?' August 25, 2004 I have a question for Ray Bagnuolo: What exactly is an "elder deacon?" It is my understanding from careful reading of the Book of Order that in the PCUSA you are ordained either to the office of elder or deacon. While you may have been installed as one or the other at different times in your life, I do not think it is possible to serve as both elder and deacon simultaneously. If a particular church has an office of "elder deacon" I would challenge these ordinations as improper. Brian Ahier The Dalles, Ore. PCUSA took politically correct position on FMA not the Biblical one August 25, 2004 The PCUSA took the politically correct position on the Federal Marriage Amendment, since the leadership of the PCUSA is not Biblical in their thinking, thus ignorant of the Bible's view on marriage. For a denomination to accommodate the world's view on same-sex marriage is apostate, something that is tragic, grieving the Holy Spirit of God. The result will be further decline of membership to other denominations that obey Biblical authority. Lou. S. Nowasielski Wilmington, Del. Bagnuolo should heed Jesus' advice August 25, 2004 Mr. Bagnuolo: One thing you lack. You need to heed the advice Jesus gave to the woman taken in adultery. "Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more." Pete Simpson Bloomington, Minn. Andrews offers weak excuses, but no apologies August 24, 2004 Has anyone else noticed that apologies aren't what they used to be? "I'm sorry" has become "I'm sorry you are offended." Those are two radically different statements. Following this cultural trend, Susan Andrews offers a few weak excuses instead of heartfelt apologies. Susan, all you have to do is humbly apologize for you comments. Say you are sorry. Say that you will seriously contemplate how the words you spoke from the "pulpit" of the most honored position in our denomination were hurtful. Say that you were mistaken in your judgment. Say that you will contemplate your words and learn from your mistakes. Don't blame The Layman for your own mistakes. Don't blame its readers for misunderstanding you. Blame yourself and your all too human nature for speaking before thinking. We all do it. Just take your foot out of your mouth and say two little words: "I'm sorry." Nick Lincoln Richmond, Va. Blatantly anti-Israel 'divestment' position marks pinnacle of incredulity August 24, 2004 Although I have been associated with the PCUSA barely more than a decade, I have found the annual deliberations and policies emanating from the denominational staff and General Assembly each year more disturbing then the last. The latest, blatantly anti-Israel "divestment" position marks the pinnacle of incredulity. I don't now if there is a chemical in the water when these people meet or if selection for such duty is confined to the chronically deluded, but the policy and its nominal justification reflect a terrible lack of understanding of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Israel lives under the daily threat of destruction, and it has for nearly 60 years. They had to win the land "ceded" to them after WWII and they have been forced to fight daily to hold it. When a Palestinian teen-ager wears a bomb on his chest to kill Israeli women and children on a bus or at a shopping mall, he is lauded in the world press for his commitment and religious fervor. When an Israeli fighter pilot bombs a Hezbollah stronghold in a Palestinian enclave, the same press condemns the attack as barbaric. Palestinian leaders are hailed by the world's politicians as peacemakers and reasonable men, yet they steadfastly refuse to repudiate the primary tenet of their movement – the destruction of Israel and establishment of a new Palestinian state where Israel now stands. Yet, the UN, under whose aegis modern Israel was constituted, consistently stands with the Palestinians. As for "the wall," what sane person would not want to limit access to a neighbor committed to killing him? There is right and wrong in this debate, but neither has to do with the divestment position set down by the PCUSA. The church's role is to spread the Gospel and relieve suffering. Every time the leaders of this denomination take a political position, it becomes more apparent that their extreme left-wing bias holds sway over their commitment to the Great Commission. If you want peace in Israel, get off your leather chair and go evangelize the Palestinian camps. Suddenly, an Israeli soldier will look pretty good! Gary Loftis, elder Major, USAF (Retired) Jesus does not teach us to survive. He teaches us to die well August 24, 2004 In a letter from your online edition posted August 23, Mrs. Nancy Forsyth said this: "Like the Japanese and Germans of my generation, the radical Muslims are out to conquer the whole world. They want to turn it into one big Muslim country bound by Muslim rules. This is a war which will continue for years to come and the members of the Presbyterian Church had better grow up and realize that we are in for at least a 20-year battle. Our survival depends on having citizens with common sense who know what our priorities are. In WWII we knew that our first priority was to defeat the enemy using any means possible to ensure our survival." I do not understand how her comments relate to the war in Iraq. Iraq had a secular government that actually cracked down on radical Muslims and was not based on Islamic law, as are Iran and Saudi Arabia. The war in Iraq is not a fight against radical Islam because the militant Islam practiced by al-Qaeda was not a force there, at least not until the U.S invasion cast out one demon (Saddam) only to have seven spirits more wicked than itself (Islamic terrorists) take control (Matt 12:43-45). What I find foreign to the Bible is Mrs. Forsyth's insistence on using any means possible to ensure our survival. To make survival our highest priority is to deny the resurrection and the kingdom of God. Jesus had many opportunities to survive – he could have struck a deal with the devil in the wilderness. He could have eased off on claiming too much authority for himself. He could have been less incendiary during his last week in Jerusalem. But Jesus prized love of God and love of neighbor over survival. Jesus trusted that in the resurrection he would be vindicated. Why do we not trust we will be vindicated not by use of force, but by the resurrection? If God saw fit to deal with sin while preserving human life why do we seek to deal with evil by taking life? Jesus refused to use violence to preserve his own life. Jesus does not teach us to survive. He teaches us to die well. If Jesus chose not to call upon legions of angels to smite his foes why should the people of God endorse violence? From reading articles and letters on this site, war is portrayed as an essential tenet of Christian faith. Since when did Christ commit the sword as the way of the Lord, the path to salvation? Does not Scripture speak of a time when swords will be beaten into plowshares, and is not Scripture clear that renouncing violence for something that builds up is in fact the way of the Lord (Isa. 2:3-5)? Is the church not called to live the reality of the kingdom in the present for all the world to see? St. Paul made it clear that the cross would seem foolish and weak, a stumbling block to many. But it was precisely the cross, that moment when Jesus said "no" to survival at any cost, that life and salvation was won. (I Cor. 1:18ff) When will we stop living as enemies of the cross and be willing to carry around the death of Jesus so that the world might know life (2 Cor. 4:7-12)? Pastor Ed Kross Ash Grove, MO No comparison between 'non-recovering alcoholic' and 'self-affirming gay' August 24, 2004 In reply to the recent letter by Rev. Bucklin: What exactly is the comparison between a "non-recovering alcoholic" and a self affirming (celebrating) "gay" person? It would seem that the former may well be repentant if not successful in casting off sin while the latter by definition always celebrates his/her sin and claims change to be impossible and unnecessary. These are opposites right out of the gate presented as an equal comparison. Additionally we are asked to accept that Jesus and Paul are in opposition in Scripture. ("Jesus' example should be followed rather than Paul's admonition.") The writer's suggestion of change from homosexual to "straight" by way of a "unconditional asexual love from Christian men" would hardly be welcomed by the PCUSA homosexual advocates I know and of which I have read. Will excluding such persons lead to redemption? I hope not, for by the criteria of Scripture, neither the devil nor his own will enter the kingdom of heaven. I do not understand the mission of the church to be administering the Word and Sacraments to spiritually agnostic and willful unrepentant sinners. Saints are to "shake off the dust under their feet" and move on to more fertile souls with which to plant the seed of the Word. Mark 6:11: "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city." By other criteria, however, I understand that the devil will one day surrender his conquests and all men will be saved according to the will of God. So goes the "historical-critical-(modernism)" method of Christian re-education. Modernism: the belief that the outlook of modern man is superior to that of medieval and ancient man; and more specifically, the belief that all religion, including Christianity and the idea of God, arises from a preconceptual, subrational religious instinct dominant in primitive man, whose promptings are unacceptable to modern scientific man. Davis R. Dalby Jr., elder Virginia Beach, Va. Gay man doesn't believe in 'father' blame August 24, 2004 Like the Rev. Alison Bucklin, I also don't agree with Robert Gagnon's views on the report of the Theological Task Force on Peace, Unity and Purity. But I do take issue with a few comments by Ms. Bucklin. She notes: "Do we ordain non-recovering alcoholics? No." Then she later states "One of the clearest findings of recent research on homosexuality indicates that many if not the majority of homosexuals have experienced an impaired relationship with their father. Many who have been healed from that compulsion report that they have done so when offered unconditional, asexual love from Christian men." OK, so the question I must ask as a homosexual, is the impaired relationship my fault or that of my father? I will note that in Christian counseling I had several years ago I was convinced that I hated my father. But you know what? Later on I realized that was nonsense. And I'm glad to say my recovery as a gay Christian came about through asexual relationships with Christian men both straight and gay. And I've always loved my father. Nevertheless if the relationship was indeed impaired I have to only conclude it is my father's fault not mine, based on what I was told and seems to be what ex-gay groups teach. In that case this means many fathers in the PCUSA have created impaired relationships that continue since we as gays still remain in this denomination with our gay identity rather than "cured." And doesn't that mean that they are the ones that are really guilty in the first place and not repentant of their continuing sin? And I expect many of them are indeed ordained. I expect there are many more of them ordained than the non-recovering alcoholics and even those so-called non-repentant gay people. So my question is why isn't there a rule in the Book of Order or any fuss about those that effectively caused the real problem in the first place and haven't healed the so-called rift if one truly believes this? Let's give credit where credit is due if one really thinks this is so. Forgive me if I find some semblence of hypocrisy here. On another note I will add I don't put much credence in the "father" blame. But if others are going to do so, I think they need to do some soul searching before giving what seems to be simplistic explanations. Let's walk our talk! Earl C. Apel, deacon Mount Auburn Presbyterian Church Cincinnati, Ohio God's blessing on church preaching his Word August 24, 2004 It is amazing how church growth can be accomplished when the Bible is proclaimed as the infallible, inspired, inerrant Word of God. God is blessing his Word by bringing his elect to Gateway Presbyterian Church. A tale of two churches – one growing, one dying – Gateway Presbyterian Church, now EPC growing, and Northcrest Presbyterian Chruch (PCUSA) dying. How do you compare two churches? Gateway, now has more than 700 in attendance, and Northcrest has just 63? I would like the esteemed leadership of the PCUSA to answer the question. Lou. S. Nowasielski Wilmington, Del. Can police no longer use 'intelligence' to track down criminals? August 24, 2004 Dear Stated Clerk Clifton Kirkpatrick, I sent you several questions on August 3, 2004, regarding the PCUSA's 216th GA, and I am hoping to hear from you soon. In addition, I had a question regarding the GA's Item 10-13 concerning the Patriot Act. I called PCUSA's Joyce Evans about my question, and she referred me to PCUSA's Laurie Griffith, manager of judicial process and social witness. Ms. Griffith called me on or about August 12, 2004, and I asked her to clarify the meaning of item 3: "the clear division between intelligence and criminal investigation should be restored." Subsequently, the GA says "if the clear distinction between intelligence gathering and criminal investigation is breached, individuals have no rights in the areas of free speech, free association, privacy and security." Ms. Griffith advised me that she was not at the GA meeting and that I should contact the author, Justin M. Johnson. I requested contact information on Mr. Johnson, but Ms. Griffith did not have it. She advised me that if she found contact information for Mr. Johnson she would contact me – however, she has not contacted me. I found a telephone number for Justin M. Johnson in Pittsburgh, Pa., from Switchboard. I called this number on August 17, 2004 and left a voice message asking Mr. Johnson to call me. However he has not called me as of today (August 21). Perhaps he is out of town, or I am using the wrong telephone number? On August 19, 2004, I left a voice message with Ms. Griffith that I was unable to reach Mr. Johnson at the above number, and advised her that I intended to write you for help in clearing up my question. I advised her that I would be pleased to copy her with this e-mail if she would provide me with her e-mail address, but I have not heard from her. I showed item 3 of Item 10-13 to the Chief of Police of Wilmette, Ill., and he advised me that the wording is unclear. U.S. police use intelligence to track down criminals. Webster's dictionary defines intelligence as: the gathering of secret information, as for military or police purposes. 1. Is the GA saying that the police should no longer gather intelligence to track down criminals? 2. Is the GA saying that the police can gather intelligence as long as they do not use it for criminal investigation? 3. What does the GA mean by "if the clear distinction between intelligence gathering and criminal investigation is breached, individuals have no rights in the areas of free speech, free association, privacy and security?" The authors need to clarify what "distinction" they are talking about. If whatever the GA is attempting to say is unclear to an experienced chief of police, then I assume that it is equally unclear to the U.S. President and U.S. Congress. A compelling lesson learned from Sept. 11 was that failure to share intelligence information among various law enforcement agencies made the U.S. vulnerable to terrorism. A major conclusion of the 9-11 Commission was to stress the importance of sharing intelligence. I am pleased to see intelligence gathered from criminal investigations used to track down terrorists and intelligence gathered from terrorist investigations used to track down criminals. If the distinction between these two types of intelligence is what the GA is attempting to address, then I believe they need to clarify their position. I hope that you can answer my questions, Dr. Kirkpatrick. George Vandervoort First Presbyterian Church of Wilmette God has some strong feelings about Israel August 24, 2004 There is much to commend in your article on Christian Zionism, particularly your concern for the human issues that have been too often pushed aside for the sake of political expediency. The political situation is a mess because there is no true spiritual foundation on Jesus Christ. Nevertheless, the quote, "Jesus rejected efforts to speculate on the future by saying it was not for them to know the 'times or the seasons' that God has chosen" [Acts 1:6-11] tends to obscure much that God has already said that is not speculation. And that is the clear Biblical fact that all nations will come against Jerusalem and God will fight against those nations and destroy them (Zechariah 12). So obviously God has some strong feelings about the present state of Israel. Although that nation is mired in sin, it is still going to be a major factor in how God judges the rest of the nations, and that we must always be mindful of lest we find ourselves opposing God. Vern Kuenzi Andrews wants to clarify errors and misinterpretations in The Layman August 23, 2004 I am writing to clarify factual errors and misinterpretations reported in the three articles pertaining to me in the recent issue of The Layman. In the article about Rev. Githii and the Presbyterian Church of East Africa, the full context of my remarks was not reported. Though I regret my unfortunate use of language about the PCUSA being the "parent" of the PCEA, my comments about the African church were a positive and heartfelt affirmation of the energy, the growth and the joy I experienced in Cameroon, South Africa and Ethiopia. Whenever I talk about my November, 2003, African trip, I suggest that we need to learn from our African brothers and sisters about how to be evangelists for a growing church. In the article criticizing my description [page 88 of 173 in pdf] of the church as a "human institution," the context of my words was misinterpreted. I hope that the author agrees with me that all of us are sinners – which is what I meant by "human." Like Paul I believe that the church is a treasure in clay jars so that the extraordinary power of Christ might be shown forth. My moderator's report is a statement of praise and thanksgiving for what God is doing through the "human" clay pot called the PCUSA. Finally, the article describing Mr. Jensen's charges against me indicated that I was a witness before the investigating committee called to consider Mr. Jensen's similar charges against my colleague several years ago. Not only were those charges unanimously dismissed by the committee, I was never called as a witness. I would encourage The Layman to "raise the standard" by more careful and factual reporting. Susan R. Andrews Moderator of the 215th General Assembly (2003) Bethesda, Md. Gunn will respond to Yearsley's 'misperceptions' August 23, 2004 In reference to the questions by E.E. Jones concerning the veracity of the comments made by Rev. James C Yearsley, I will be happy to correct several of the misperceptions he expresses which he gained in conversation with Rev. David Githii. Give me a few days to confirm the information and I will be back to you. Wilson Gunn, general presbyter National Capital Presbytery Chevy Chase, Md. View of Iraqi war depends on one's level of maturity August 23, 2004 Regarding the 216th General Assembly declaring the war in Iraq as "unwise, immoral, and illegal:" Being a senior citizen who has lived through many wars and who served in the US Navy WAVES during World War II, I would like to make my views known about "wise, moral and legal" actions of the United States. The terms unwise and immoral are a matter of personal opinion depending on your maturity level. People who think on an adult level see the whole picture as Roosevelt and Churchill did in World War II. Of course, there were childish people in WWII who thought we shouldn't go to war even though we were attacked. They were called "isolationists." Thank God the majority of the country were mature enough to see what needed to be done or else we would all be speaking Japanese or German today. As to whether the war with Iraq is illegal depends on a person's level of intelligence. An intelligent person would know that Congress voted to approve the war with Iraq making it legal. As to the remarks of Edward LeRoy Long Jr. that it was the judgment of the committee that the term "illegal" was appropriate under UN law: Why is the Peacemaking Committee and the General Assembly considering UN laws? It would seem that the Peacemaking Committee and the General Assembly are neither mature enough or intelligent enough to know that we live in the United States of America and are bound by the laws of the U.S. Constitution! The laws of the UN are not our guidelines. My great uncle, Patrick Henry, must be turning in his grave at the idea of Americans quoting the laws of another entity. We live under the laws of the U.S. Constitution! There is nothing in the resolution showing how the Iraqi people feel about being liberated from a crazy dictator. Did the Peacemaking Committee show maturity and common sense by taking into consideration the feelings of a large number of the Iraqi people before drawing up the resolution? Obviously not! They just talked to one person! As a 1944 college graduate with a major in industrial psychology, I often think of the words of one of my professors: "The hardest thing you will have to face in going through life is having to deal with people who have never grown up." This is exactly what the Presbyterian Church is having to face today. On one side we have members who aren't mature enough to see the whole picture. They just see what they want to see and never connect the dots. On the other side we have mature members who do see the whole picture and are completely frustrated by the actions of the childish members. How this childish vs. mature conflict is going to be resolved, I don't know. The childish members seem to be dead set on having their own way as children do. They insist on rebelling against the laws of God by ordaining and marrying homosexuals and by killing little children. And the United States is always the bad guy! For those church members who can't see the whole picture, we are in World War III, folks! Like the Japanese and Germans of my generation, the radical Muslims are out to conquer the whole world. They want to turn it into one big Muslim country bound by Muslim rules. This is a war which will continue for years to come and the members of the Presbyterian Church had better grow up and realize that we are in for at least a 20-year battle. Our survival depends on having citizens with common sense who know what our priorities are. In WWII we knew that our first priority was to defeat the enemy using any means possible to ensure our survival. When Saddam's Iraqi pilots fired at American planes in the no-fly zone, Iraq declared war on America. Passing a resolution stating we should not have invaded Iraq when Iraqi pilots fired on American planes would have been laughed at in WWII. It is a tribute to the leadership of our country that with today's weapons we conquered Iraq in such a short time and have now returned the Iraqi government to the Iraqi people. But immature adults who can't see the whole picture don't appreciate what we have done. I pray every day for our country and for our church. This is a time that calls for strong mature leadership in all walks of life. We have too many church members who don't know why they are Christians and too many citizens who don't know why they are Americans. Mrs. Nancy Forsyth Pikeville, Ky. Diversity, tolerance and same-sex marriages are now the trinity of the PCUSA August 23, 2004 To: The Presbyterian Church USA: Peacemaking Committee, Advisory Committee on Social Witness Policy, Washington Office, Moderator, Stated Clerk, Commissioners to 2004 GA, Presbytery of Tampa Bay, concerned Presbyterians: The Presbyterian Peacemaking Program, aided by the Advisory Committee on Social Witness Policy, is deceitful, ignorant of the world we live in, decidedly un-American, definitely anti-Semitic, and clearly disruptive to the peace and unity of the Presbyterian Church. Calling for U.S. corporate divestment and concessions which threaten the security of Israel plays into the hands of the Palestinian Muslim terrorists bent on the annihilation of Israel. For 50 years the Palestinian jihad, aided by Muslim neighbors, have murdered thousands of innocent victims. The enemies of Israel have an implacable desire to destroy it. Were in not for the U.S., the Jews would have been driven into the sea in 1967, and again in 1974. The Muslim fanatics will never allow peace between the two. When Anwar Sadat made a concession, he was assassinated. If Arafat makes any, he will meet the same fate. Is this why the "peacekeepers" made no effort to meet with him? A noted author has commented about the GA action, "It takes a virulent strain of moral idiocy and meanness to single out Israel, not Arafat's Palestinian Authority." While serving in the Army, I visited Israel in 1976 and talked to many of their officers following their recovery of hostages at Entebbe Airport on July 4 of that year. While touring the Golan Heights, I was saddened by the manpower and resources that had to be spent on security. The whole country was on a war-time footing – and will remain that way forever. I was told that there will never be peace because "the jihad will never recognize the existence of Israel, so how can they be guilty of killing something that does not exist." The Jewish Anti-Defamation League has called the recent action by the General Assembly to be "offensive and distressing." Is this what we call "peacemaking" in the PCUSA? The Presbyterian UN Office is equally culpable. When they met with Kofi Annan, did they ask him why Muslim countries vote as a bloc to demand that Israel give up vital security measures, but never demand that Palestinians stop their suicidal attacks? And while they had his ear, why didn't they demand an explanation on the "oil for food" scandal? In the last 15 years fanatical followers of Islam have killed nearly 5,000 Americans (900 in Iraq) and cost this country billions of dollars. Peacemakers should be gravely concerned about the 6 million Muslims in this country whose clerics have not raised a voice against terrorism committed by their religious brethren. Presbyterian peacemakers, where are you? Yet these peacemakers find time to persuade the GA to denounce American servicemen as war criminals. I resent having my Army son called a war criminal. Several years ago he served six months as part of the UN peacekeeping force in the Sinai Desert under adverse living conditions. He has done more for peacemaking than the PCUSA committee will ever do. Where are the peacemakers who should intervene in the war against the innocent unborn? Why is the occupant of the Washington Office free to participate with and be an advocate for the abortionists? Why is the PCUSA a party to those who would suck the brains out of an unborn child and discard it in the trash bin? The greatest peacemaking need is within the four walls of the Presbyterian Church, yet what is being done? Nothing. The moderator, the stated clerk, the Washington Office, pastors, churches and presbyteries are allowed to ignore Scripture and violate our church constitution. Instead of being disciplined they are lauded or re-elected. Diversity, tolerance and same-sex marriages are now the trinity of the PCUSA. Satan is alive and well in Louisville. Completely ignored is the reason why 40,000 leave this denomination every year. When Scripture is marginalized, the radical left is always ready to join the party. Following the PCUSA-supported Re-Imagining Conference, which denied Christ and promoted homosexuality, a person who was about to join our church declined, saying "You have an outstanding church but I cannot tolerate your denomination." Are you listening, peacemakers? I don't really believe you care. You haven't shown that you do. Jack Vanderbleek, elder Northeast Presbyterian Church St. Petersburg, Fla. It's obvious that PCUSA leadership is not governed by the Bible August 23, 2004 One of my prized possessions is a certificate of promotion from the beginners department to the primary department at the First Presbyterian Church, Okmulgee, Okla., on September 4, 1933. I was raised in that church, learned the Catechism and the Apostle's Creed, was accepted as a member at age 12, and sang in the church choir until I joined the Navy. It had significant mission emphasis because Darst Newhouse was a missionary in the Congo from our very own church. I just read the July 2004 Layman issue and am now convinced that my national denomination (I am a member of First Presbyterian Church, Spokane) has evolved into a parallel of the Mormons who have added other ideas to the Bible as basis for their religion. It is obvious that national denomination leadership is no longer governed by the Bible, but by two different interpretations of what the Bible says. Furthermore, it is extremely offensive that my denomination, not my local church, declares the war in Iraq unwise, immoral and illegal by a majority vote on a recommendation by an idiotic "unwise, immoral" but apparently "legal" commission! If I recall the history of the denomination, there was a merger of the "northern" church and the "southern" church to become Presbyterian Church (USA), overcoming a significant split in ideology, etc. Today, I firmly believe that many of our local congregations remain within the denomination merely because it "owns" the church property we use, despite the fact that it was purchased with "local" giving rather than funded by the national denomination, and would otherwise quickly vote to secede from the denomination, effectively returning to two distinct Presbyterian denominations, giving choice to those who desire a liberal interpretation of the Bible and those who, as I do, hold to the "literal" interpretation I was taught as a youngster by my mother and my church. I sorta think the Presbyterian Church (USA) has become the PresMethEpisco Social Church. Unquestionably the decline in funds for missions can be attributed to the concern many of us have that denomination leadership is untrustworthy to use the funds for the missionary objective of spreading the Good News to the unsaved but will use it for its own social agenda, including lobbying in Congress for that agenda! I realize that, at 77, I am a voice crying in the wilderness because the problem is "power to make decisions according to my own or my group's social and political agenda" rather than sticking to the simple truths I was taught. I choose to stay in my church, but most certainly do not belong to Presbyterian Church (USA) denomination as it is today nor would my mother or my grandparents!! William H. Allison Medical Lake, Wash. 'I believe we should boycott the General Assembly' August 23, 2004 It was my opinion that those "at the top" in the General Assembly were more intelligent than I. But after reading that they don't even know the reason for us being in Iraq, I am beginning to wonder. How dare they declare the military action is unwise, immoral and illegal. They don't understand that we are not fighting the country of Iraq. We are fighting those who would annihilate the people of Iraq or keep them in poverty forever. We must agree that the forces of evil are much stronger than we had anticipated. We could have waited, but after Sept. 11 when we were attacked, could we just sit by and do nothing? We, who love peace and freedom, want others to enjoy the same. Did we have a choice? And, if that situation at the General Assembly was not enough, the devil's ugly head was reared again to profess that the devil is at work in other phases of a Presbyterian's life. I refer to the stupid idea of Sophia. And, also the idea that marriage is for anyone. It takes a man and a woman to make a baby. Any other manner, such as sperm banks, and adoption can be physically accomplished, but only a man and woman can naturally do this. If we want to reinforce the importance (spiritually, if not morally) of only a husband and wife as married then how can any other social action be Christian? It is time for those wanting to liberalize marriage, taking away the importance of uniting one woman and one man, and letting anyone have the privilege of matrimony to leave the Presbyterian Church and form their own. This is also true of those who believe that anyone can be a minister in the truest form of Christianity if they do not believe that Jesus is our Savior and Redeemer. Rather than fight in each church situation, tear the congregations apart physically and spiritually, cause anguish and pain, those who would try to tear us apart should go out and organize their own brand of religion. This dissention is tearing at the hearts of every true Christian, but I think that God himself would wonder if this planet is worth saving. He gave us the wisdom in the Bible to live by – and some are not satisfied – they have to have their own way of doing things. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me." Through the years there have been human beings who for some reason have felt that they were unable to live as others do – feeling that they were a man though they appeared to be a female, and vice versa. This, no doubt, is a tragic circumstance but just as someone born blind, or deaf or otherwise different than most, they learn to accept the situation. They can't change all the rules. They adjust. One question I must ask: Who is the devil who started all this and why haven't the church leaders put a stop to it? Why have thousands of our dollars gone in to furthering these attitudes and for what? Have so many disbelieved the Bible that they must make up someone new to worship? It is too much. I believe we should boycott the General Assembly, put a padlock on the hard-earned money that was given in confidence that these officers were doing their best to serve all of us by delegating the funds where it would further the church, and send the rabble-rousers packing. They should have none of our money for Sophia or those who no longer think of marriage as sacred, or those who would preach other than the Holy Word. Jean Meenen, elder Fremont Presbyterian Church Fremont, Ne. Wake up before PCUSA and nation go under August 23, 2004 A book could be written, but I'll keep it to one page. It's hard to believe what fools we (evangelical/traditional) Presbyterians are. Example: A supposedly nationwide meeting last year at Sunset Presbyterian Church, Portland, Ore., to discuss splitting the church and getting out from under current totally Godless leadership. No one could attend without an I.D. badge, which cost $50. Sunset members by the hundreds (evangelicals) might have come, but were effectively barred. I paid up and sat through the two-day ordeal and left feeling like another fool. The moderator of the PCUSA, Susan Andrews, was given a round of applause on her arrival instead of being shunned and booed and driven from the premises in shame as she deserves along with the rest of the leadership from most presbyteries up through the General Assembly Council. I'm still a member of the PCUSA because we still have some good pastors and individual churches – also, because I do not know where else to go. I am an elder, graduate of McCormick Seminary and sincerely thank God that I was barred years ago from becoming clergy because of my pro-life activism. I yearn for a church that is honest and led by God, Christ and the Holy Spirit. Now it is the opposite. Wake up before we go under – both church and nation. Thomas D. Mitchell Portland, Ore. Concept of same-sex 'marriage' without merit August 23, 2004 Moral considerations aside, the concept of same-sex "marriage" is entirely without merit. From time immemorial, warm friendships have existed between persons of the same sex and they have substantially enriched the quality of life for both parties. Such attachments are universally regarded with favor and some of these have become legendary. But they have never been accorded recognition by either church or state because their depth and duration are of no consequence whatsoever to anyone except the parties themselves. Such friends have never been expected, nor has there ever been any disposition to give them, the tax benefits, the testamentary and insurance advantages and the other privileges that are routinely accorded to heterosexual "married" couples. A husband and wife, on the other hand, do indeed deserve preferential treatment, not because of their feeling for one another, but because they constitute the core of a "family" that is likely to produce children and is part of a genealogical line. The "family" undeniably does lie at the root of the social structure in the strength and durability of which we all have a stake. No such significance can possibly be found in same-sex attachments nor does their importance increase if they have erotic overtones. It does not make any difference to anyone but the parties themselves how profound their affection for one another may be or how long the relationship may last. The most for which same-sex couples are entitled is to ask of the people around them is indifference and tolerance. Whether or not this should be accorded is quite a different matter. Arthur F. Stocker First Presbyterian Church Charlesttesville, Va. The writer is professor emeritus of classics at the University of Virginia. Pastor disagrees with Gagnon's pessimistic analysis of task force report August 20, 2004 Although I am a long-time supporter of the Presbyterian Lay Committee and its positions, I take issue with Robert Gagnon's pessimistic analysis of the interim report of the Theological Task Force on Peace, Unity and Purity. These are my areas of disagreement: Although Paul is quite clear that we are not to associate or even eat with the sexually immoral [1 Cor. 5:11], he also includes the "greedy ... idolater, reviler, drunkard or robber." Those who complain that we treat sexual sin differently than other sins need to be careful about consistency. Do we ordain non-recovering alcoholics? No. But do we evict them from fellowship? No. Jesus was criticized by the Pharisees for hanging around tax collectors and prostitutes and other sinners. We need to consider carefully under what circumstances Jesus' example should be followed rather than Paul's admonition. I suggest that several questions should be asked: Does the individual in question understand and accept that the behavior is sin? Our culture teaches that sexual fulfillment is an inalienable right. It takes deep confidence in the power of the Holy Spirit to give up such a dearly held part of one's personhood. Will excluding such persons lead to redemption? Is there a "weaker brother" issue? Are other members of the church likely to be drawn into the sin by associating with the sinner? Are we afraid of sexual sin? (No, I'm not accusing the church of homophobia!) Paul was very much concerned that the Christian community not bring scandal on itself by violating society's norms. Does banishing persons caught in sexual sin create a false impression of the kind of transforming grace offered by the Gospel? One of the clearest findings of recent research on homosexuality indicates that many if not the majority of homosexuals have experienced an impaired relationship with their father. Many who have been healed from that compulsion report that they have done so when offered unconditional, asexual love from Christian men. I believe that the current division in the church over sexuality may well be payback for the centuries in which the church has dealt gracelessly with persons caught in sexual sin. We must remember that they are captives, even if suffering from a sort of Stockholm syndrome of believing their sin is their salvation rather than their prison. Granted, the balance between loving the sinner while hating the sin is a difficult one to achieve, and may differ in actual execution not only from individual to individual but from culture to culture. The most important thing to remember is the desired outcome, freedom and redemption in Jesus Christ, and our approach should be the one most likely to achieve the ultimate goal. Rev. Alison Bucklin, pastor First Presbyterian Church of Clayton Clayton, N.J. Redirect per-capita as a statement of support for PCEA's courage August 20, 2004 It was quite a joy to read the suggestion by Confessing Church leaders in the latest Layman (end of "Shunned" article) that PCUSA churches consider redirecting their per-capita giving to the PCEA as a statement against current PCUSA policies regarding homosexuality and as a statement supporting the PCEA's courage to take the action that they did. It was also a note of confirmation, because just after the General Assembly, our session voted to redirect our giving to the Baro Bible School in Ethiopia, thus enabling two Presbyterian students to receive full tuition scholarships. We had been redirecting our funds to support several pro-life agencies as a statement against the PCUSA's abortion policies, but since we already support these agencies via our benevolence budget, we decided to take a separate course of action this year. I would encourage other Confessing Churches to consider similar actions. Dana Jon Smith Director of Equipping Ministries Great Valley Presbyterian Church Malvern, Pa. Will general presbyter answer Yearsley's comments? August 20, 2004 The general presbyter of National Capital Presbytery was very caustic in his reaction to the article in The Layman about the treatment of David Githii at General Assembly. I was amazed at the information that the Rev. James C. Yearsley supplied in his letter. In the interest of good journalism, would the general presbyter of National Capital please supply me answers to Yearsley's comments? Did the presbytery house folk from African churches with same-gender couples and did you send a contingent to Africa that included same-gender couples? Why wasn't Githii met at the airport by a representative from National Capital? I will be scanning The Layman and other publications for your reply. Please answer these questions with brevity and clearness since I am allergic to spin. E.E. Jones Cullen, Va. There's no shame in how far some will go to intimidate August 20, 2004 The following comment attributed to Ms. Andrews smacks of arrogance unbecoming to our faith: "They are kind of in their adolescence/young-adult stage of moving out into their own independence, yet still figuring out how to be in relationship with us as their parent church," she said. By extension, those of us, and we are many, who do not agree with her are still in our "adolescence/young adult stage," even in our advanced years. Is there no shame in how far some will go to try to intimidate those who have honest disagreement with them? Along with many in the past, I have often been silent for the sake of unity of the body of Christ. Now, for the sake of the body of Christ, I am silent no more. Woody Johnson Scottsdale, Ariz. The problem of all 'institutions' and the hearts of those in leadership August 20, 2004 Who is the author of this editorial? I am very impressed with the way the author addressed the problem of all "institutions" and the hearts of those in leadership. The only thing that could have been stronger would be to call for an emergency meeting for a call to repentance. They may not have time to wait 2 years! Rosemary Nolen Denomination shows inability to understand the Scriptures August 20, 2004 The PCUSA is showing its apostasy and inability to understand the Scriptures. It will dissolve as a "Church" or be absorbed by the influence of the anti-Christ, which is apparently alive and doing quite well. May God have mercy on your souls, and bring you to a true understanding of the Gospel. Please read 1 Cor. 15:1-4. This is the Gospel. Romans 10:9. "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." May truth seek you out. John Weir We are sheep amongst the wolves August 20, 2004 I have been a member of the presbytery all of my life, which is a total of 25 years. I have been baptized, confirmed and married in the Presbyterian Church. I remember as a pre-teen the presbytery split because some members thought we ought to worship "goddess sophia" and practice witchcraft rather than worship the one true God and adhere to his Word. I remember thinking, "What is wrong with the adults – have they lost their minds?" I prayed in my heart that we, the true Christians, would separate ourselves from such darkness. The day that I heard that there was going to be a breakaway my heart leapt and my faith in the adults was restored. Today, I wonder what the children think when they hear that some in the presbytery condone and encourage anti-Semitism and homosexuality. Do they wonder in silence what is wrong with us? I know I still do – except I can be silent no more. Today, I am meeting with the minister of my church and will discuss a split. My minister is a very old man and I doubt he will be up for the task. This all saddens me. I know that if things do not change soon, I will leave the church and take my family with me. Ergo, I write to you, knowing that you recognize that we are sheep amongst the wolves. Satan is the leader at the top levels of our church – not Christ. That said, I encourage you to initiate a breakaway. I will follow and so will the true believers. There is a time to tear and a time to mend. If Christ is with us, who can be against us? If you won't split, then kindly give me your reasons. Lisa Fairburn Githii lives by the Bible's teaching August 20, 2004 Two year ago I had the privilege of attending Rev. Githii's enthornement and spend a week with his family and friends in his village. He is a man who lives simply and loves God. I believe he does nothing or says nothing without much thought and prayer. He lives by the Bible's teaching daily. Judy Friend Rochester, Ind. Veteran applauds General Assembly stand on Iraq August 20, 2004 Our troops are trained to follow orders. They are not war criminals. The problem is with our leaders, who declared war on Iraq unilaterally, with no consultation, with nor consideration of our longtime friends and the UN. For this we are now paying a heavy price. As a veteran of the Korean War and WW II – and an elder – I heartily applaud the General Assembly for taking their stand. Robert S. (Bob) Duggan, Jr. LCDR USNR-Retired Atlanta, Ga. PCUSA leadership has completely lost sight of the real Gospel August 20, 2004 In my personal opinion, the support of such an organization [World Alliance of Reformed Churches ] by the PCUSA is totally out of order. Personally I would like to see my home church withdraw from PCUSA because of its support of such organizations, especially financially. I also feel the PCUSA is totally out of the mainstream of Biblical teachings. It is certainly easy to see why it is one of the fastest declining denominations in the U.S. Church leadership has completely lost sight of the real Gospel, as taught by the word of God. Murl McCoy Is it Sodom and Gomorrah time or what? August 20, 2004 I find it interesting that in the PCUSA today you can be a gay sadomasochistic Webmaster, but you'd better not be associated with the Layman or with the Confessing Church Movement. Is it Sodom and Gomorrah time or what? Anyway, I was further interested in your recent article about five churches that have left the PCUSA for other denominations; one in Mississippi went with the PCA, the other four went over to the EPC. Since I'm in the EPC, I thought I'd offer a few remarks about it. You can get a feel for what they're about by going to www.epchurch.org. Starting in 1981 with 12 churches and 12,000 members, they now have 194 churches and 65,000 members. They were bigger, but they recently released the St. Andrews Presbytery down in Argentina to the status of separate denomination. An evangelical congregation in the EPC can spend its time, money and energy doing ministry and not fretting about the antics emanating from Louisville. I should think that a Confessing Church congregation would feel more at home in the EPC than in the PCA simply because they allow women officers; the PCA does not. The EPC adheres to the Westminster Confession rather than to a "Book of Confessions." All ministerial candidates must affirm their agreement with Westminster. It also has a "Statement of Belief" that is clearly evangelical. It affirms the same things that the three-point Confessing Church statement does. It is Biblically oriented. It opposes abortion and the gay agenda. The EPC also differs from the PCA in that it is more open to the continuing gifts of the Holy Spirit (but not all of us are charismatic!). It has an active missionary arm known as World Outreach. As an ordained EPC minister, I am not a "TR" (totally or truly Reformed) but rather am an "RR" (reasonably Reformed). The EPC is more broadly evangelical or latitudinarian than is the PCA. When my wife and I attempt to raise additional support (necessary when your family is growing), we find that PCA missions committees only want to hear about how Reformed you are, and then every third or fourth word had better be "Reformed." This is generally not the case when talking to EPC church missions committees. My wife and I have many wonderful friends in the PCA. To me, it's greatest strength is its missions agency, Mission To The World (MTW). MTW boasts of 560 career missionaries serving in over 60 countries and over 7,000 PCA members serving as short-term missionaries. They are touching lives through such ministries as StreetChild Mission International, disaster relief, AIDS efforts, and short-term medical teams that include 520 PCA medical professionals. They are involved in primary medicine, dentistry, and optometry. How does this compare with the PCUSA's missions program? Bear in mind, the PCA only has 300,000 members, compared to over 2 million in the PCUSA. It occurs to me that if an individual PCUSA congregation attempts to leave, it faces a difficult time, but what if a dozen or a score of congregations were to network and leave together? I just read about some Episcopal churches leaving the ECUSA and aligning with an African diocese. They face the issue of possibly losing their property. I wish a group of churches would take this keep-the-property issue to the Supreme Court! Rev. Dr. Larry Brown African Bible College Lilongwe, Malawi The Presbyterian Church does not take the Scripture seriously August 17, 2004 My wife and I recently moved into our house where I assume the prior resident had membership in your church. My wife and I are Bible-believing Christians who take our path for life from the Holy Scripture. Upon flipping through The Layman you send out, I was quite sickened at what so-called Christians are allowing in their congregations. Having read the articles on the war in Iraq (calling our men "war criminals." I was a Marine), the church stance on homosexuality and abortion, there simply is no wonder our nation is falling on its moral face. Who can we blame but ourselves for not teaching the Word of God? The Presbyterian Church does not take the Scripture seriously and instead is doing the work of the evil one in its teaching of false doctrine, therefore, please discontinue the shipping of your newsletter to my house. "Now I beseech you brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them." Romans 16:17 You are under the worldly mind of men and cling not to the true, unchanging will of God. His word was true in the first century AD and has not changed to fit your liberal ideologies. So again, discontinue all communications with this house. I do indeed pray for your misguided denomination to seek the truth of the Lord, not of men. Sonny Bishop Roanoke, Va. 'Our complacency' has allowed the misguided to control the PCUSA August 17, 2004 I was raised in a Christian home. I have been a Presbyterian, including elder, for many years first in Canton, Ohio and now in Solana Beach, Calif. I recently remarried and encouraged my husband who was raised Methodist to join our Presbyterian Church. What an embarrassment when The Layman arrives. We like our local church and our leadership. However it is apparent that our complacency has allowed the misguided to take control of the PCUSA at large. It is unacceptable to those of us who try to follow Jesus and lead a Christian life. When my grandmother used to say that we would see strong evidence of the devil in "our last days," I was awed but not convinced. Now I understand. If we as Presbyterians pray collectively for the redemption of our church, perhaps we can drive out these instruments of the devil. I pledge to try. Nancy Ramsayer Pike Encinitas, Calif. Are we ready to shut down the stock market? August 17, 2004 It is a fair question to ask those that oppose capitalism if they want to shut down the stock market. The hallmark (according to Mises) is the stock market (see http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?control=1587). In countries that adopted communism, they can count 100,000,000 deaths under this form of government in the 20th century. How can the people at WARC even consider promoting such a system? Paul Schmidt Key words Gunn overlooked are 'faithful,' 'disciples' and 'obedience' August 17, 2004 I think the Rev. Dr. G. Wilson Gunn Jr., general presbyter, National Capital Presbytery, is right on to say congregations should include "good and faithful disciples of Jesus Christ ... all persons who respond in trust and obedience to God's grace in Jesus Christ." The key words he and those with him seem to overlook, though, are "faithful," "disciples," and "obedience." Those words require changing our own desires and will to match our Lord's. To the point addressed in the letter, those who will not leave the homosexual lifestyle are not living in obedience – they are not following Jesus as faithful disciples being transformed daily in thought and action by the Holy Spirit. Therein constitutes the rejection of Christ himself and one scandal to the gospel that is invading our church. It was Jesus who said, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations ... teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." (Matthew 28 19:20) True faith is evidenced by a changed life. Debi Grenseman, elder Walla Walla First Presbyterian Church Attempts to do 'drive by' fence-mending were obvious and hypocritical August 18, 2004 Wilson, Wilson,Wilson, you sit by the phone waiting for Parker to call you in your new exalted position of general presbyter. Why should he? Who are you to deserve such obeisance? Imagine, if you will, the feelings of David Githii as he sat in the Richmond airport waiting to be greeted by one of those who had invited him to cross half the planet to attend GA 216. Where were you then? Where were you when he was left without information or funds to purchase meals and other support for his visit in our land? Where were you when the arrogant National Capital Presbytery sent a team of visitors to Nairobi that was intentionally inclusive of same-sex couples? Were you waiting then? For what? Where were you when the visitors from the PCEA were housed with same-sex couples on their visit to National Capital? You certainly weren't sitting thinking through the impact of these decisions to rub an unscriptural and apostate ideology in the collective faces of the PCEA. Your protestations to Parker ring hollow, my friend. I sat with Dr. Githii for extended periods of time in Richmond. I heard from his own lips the pain and hurt that the thoughtless and unconscionable acts and words of National Capital Presbytery and our former moderator caused. It was not a personal complaint from David; he was carrying the very real anger and hurt and concerns of a 4.2-million-member Presbyterian body. He did so in the naive hope that by acting in the spirit of Matthew 18:15ff, this relationship might be salvaged. Instead he was treated as a non-entity – perhaps even an Orwellian non-person. Shame on us as the PCUSA and shame on the National Capital Presbytery, which seems more interested in conforming to this world than in being transformed by the spirit of God. The pathetic attempts to do "drive by" fence-mending after the fact in Richmond were so obvious and hypocritical as to be an embarrassment. Please spare us the nonsense. Many of us were there and observed the shameful treatment of this good man first hand. We prayed, ate, walked, talked and grew together with him. The revisionist history you offer just doesn't sell. Rev. James C. Yearsley Pittsburgh Mourn for the distorted image the PCUSA presents of our God August 18, 2004 Regarding "Covenant Network leader mounts new legal attack on 'Authoritative Interpretation'" (8/17), please see II Timothy 4: "... preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths." and II Peter 2: "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep." Destructive heresies secretly introduced long ago have been endured with great patience. Is it still with patience we are enduring or with apathy? Perhaps instruction should now take more of the image presented in James 4: "Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: 'He jealously desires the Spirit which he has made to dwell in us'? But he gives a greater grace. Therefore it says, 'God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.' Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and he will exalt you." (All quotes from NASB.) Mourn for the distorted image this denomination presents of our God and his love. Yes, we still need to love the sinner, but we must reprove, rebuke and exhort as strongly as he would lead us against the sin and the progress it is making in mangling our witness for our eternal Lord. Humble yourselves, laugh until you cry at this latest effort, respond to his leading and he will commend you. Ignore it and ... no don't. Greg Leaman Oostburg, Wisc. 'Reformed' has to do with change back to the Word of God, not away from August 18, 2004 I wonder how a learned person cannot understand what "definitive" means. Peter Oddliefson seems to not quite understand, so perhaps we can do some research together. Webster's Dictionary defines the root word "define" as meaning 1.a) to state the precise meaning of, 1.b) to describe the nature or basic qualities of; explain, 2.a) to delineate the outline or form of, and 2.b) to specifiy distinctly. "Definitive" is defined as 1) precisely defined or explicit, 2) supplying or being a final settlement or decision; conclusive, and 3) authoritative and complete. Do we need to go on? If Oddliefson contends that the AI was merely construed as authoritative, he grossly errs. In fact, he points out one of the left's most prized MO's, (re)define anything you don't like into meaning what you want it to say. In addition, Oddliefson ought to be extremely cautious about the fact that "a majority of the Bible professors in Presbyterian seminaries says it wrongly interprets Scripture that condemns homosexual behavior." The Reformation was nothing less than the Church's reaction against the gross errors of theology, doctrine, ritual, etc., etc., that flowed out of the ecclesiastical hierarchy. Right doctrine and truth is grounded solely in the will, intent and person of God. It has a whole lot less to do with priests, popes, councils and seminary professors. Oddliefson and others, out of respect for our Reformed tradition at the very least and the very souls of others at the most, ought to take another look at 3.20 of the Scots Confession. God have mercy on our denomination. It appears to be less and less Reformed every day, for being "Reformed" has to do with change back to the Word of God, not away from. Rev. Steven L. Seng First Presbyterian Church Wellsburg, W.Va. Web address was wrong August 18, 2004 In your article about Dr. Richard Sprott's sadomasochist tendencies, you say the homosexual website he writes for is leatherman.com. However, that is a legitimate tool company that actually makes excellent products. I hope you'll correct your article and post a correct and apology. If you guys are going to report things like this, you must maintain a higher level of integrity than is represented here. David Garrison Orlando, Fla. We thank for the writer for spotting our error and apologize for any problems it might have caused in the business. The correction has been made. The editors GA shouldn't meddle in foreign policy August 18, 2004 I read with surprise and dismay that the 216th General Assembly has declared the "military action against Iraq" to be "unwise, immoral and illegal." It is bad enough that our government no longer follows our Constitution by backing up those whom we send abroad to suffer and die with a formal declaration of war, but the General Assembly's statement is a dangerous blow to their morale. We do not send representatives to that assembly to meddle in foreign policy. It appears to me, from what I read in The Layman, that they have their hands full with the legitimate business of our church. What is the charter of the "Peacemaking Committee" anyhow? Making that statement certainly will not make peace anywhere. I hope that I am not alone in deploring such ill-advised, dangerous and improper action by the assembly. Robert W. Wallace Indian Harbour Beach, Fla. Sickened by Iraq statement by General Assembly August 18, 2004 After having read the July 2004 edition of The Layman, I was virtually sickened by the declaration of the 216th General Assembly that the military action against Iraq was "unwise, immoral and illegal." What does the 216th General Assembly think Saddam Hussein and his murdering family and followers did to their own people and others over many years? Isn't that what is "unwise, immoral and illegal?" It sure is, and as Christians I would think that the General Assembly would have thanked God someone finally did something to halt this massacre instead of ignoring it. Yet President Bush, who authorized this intervention, is criticized along with our troops and being referred to as a war criminal. I don't care that an assembly resource person made the statement that it was the judgment of the Peacemaking Committee (ironic name) that the term "illegal" was appropriate under U.N. law. Just look at the U.N. and its past record. Any fool can see that it is a farce and a "do-nothing organization." Along with many others, I feel that this declaration of the 216th General Assembly has done more to further destroy the Presbyterian Church (USA) at a time when the leadership is attempting to rebuild this crumbling, sick institution. This "leftist" type of movement of our church surely lacks the true spirit of Christianity and I believe this and other matters past and present have pushed me to the very edge of ending a 62-year membership. Dr. William B. Sugars 3rd Retired dentist and former U.S. Air Force officer Pottsville, Pa. GA doesn't speak for most Presbyterians August 18, 2004 The 216th General Assembly's vote on the Iraq war was in itself unwise, immoral and illegal. The General Assembly is not speaking the full conscience of our church on this matter and had no permission to vote my conscience. No surveys have been taken to support this view and the subsequent vote. An assuming minority of our national membership chose to represent all of us and had neither the right nor mandate to do so. The General Assembly positions on homosexuality and on Jesus Christ being "a way" rather than the only way do not express Biblical truth. The words of Christ and the Scriptures in their purity should not be subjected to such endless and unnecessary flagellations of them by the various committees striving to serve politically correct interests rather than Christ. I personally think our church here could honor our Lord and go forward for Christ so much more effectively and in greater unity if we were without the impairments of the overseeing structures and overreaching leadership of the General Assemblies and the presbyteries. For me and my family, we choose Christ, pure and simple. Robert A. Gillon Sr., Lt. Col., USMC, retired Santa Ana, Calif. Session also shuns National Capital, and nine other presbyteries August 17, 2004 In his letter to the editor, Rev. Dr. G. Wilson Gunn Jr., general presbyter, National Capital Presbytery writes, "I feel … well … shunned." Please inform Rev. Dr. Gunn that he is, indeed, being shunned. Our session voted April 19, to shun Dr. Gunn's entire presbytery along with nine others across the country. The session's action has had profound effects. For example, letters praising our action have been received from Confessing Churches within the affected presbyteries. Additionally, consistent with the role of an elder within the greater church, as described in the Book of Order, I have begun a personal dialogue with leadership within the Presbyterian Church of East Africa exploring the prospects of creating a closer relationship between that growing and Spirit-filled denomination and those congregations within the PCUSA who are fed up with denominational apostasy. I hasten to add that I am also fed up with condescending responses from the vested aristocracy. Jack O'Brien Pittsburgh, Pa. The buck stops at National Capital's door August 17, 2004 Dr. David Githii spoke not 15-feet from where I was sitting and I heard the story just as it was presented in the article. Why blame Parker Williamson for National Capital's action that ridiculed 4.2 million Presbyterians and did not even allow the moderator of PCEA the opportunity to address the General Assembly? The buck stopped at your door and especially at Susan Andews' on this matter. Why not accept the responsibility for creating the alienation? Dr. Gunn, your hollow whining did nothing to convince anyone and one could hardly blame Dr. Githii from shunning Susan Andrews. You stated with pride how many gay-leaning organizations and churches your presbytery has. That's well and good, but at this particular point in history, the majority of the PCUSA does not believe that gay is gay nor do they believe it to be a Scriptural lifestyle. In my 80 years, I have sat at the feet of many ministers from PhDs to lay pastors and their gospel was as Dr. Githii's people have been taught and embraced as truth. The continual push for the acceptance this lifestyle on the church is the sure destruction of the Presbyterian Church, not only here in the USA, but abroad as well. Bob Campbell, elder Kingman, Ariz. It's 'unwise, immoral and illegal' for the GA to speak for all Presbyterians August 17, 2004 It is with the greatest reluctance that I send you this email. It is a real struggle for me to remain a Presbyterian given what the national church is doing. It pains me to my very soul. The problem as reported in The Presbyterian Outlook, July 19, 2004 is the following: "The 216th General Assembly approved a resolution that describes the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq as 'unwise, immoral and illegal' and condemns 'in the strongest possible terms' the torture and abuse of prisoners by the U.S. military there." ... "Hoping that if the 2.4 million -member denomination speaks, national and international leaders might listen." My question is, does this go to a vote of the presbyteries? If not, then I believe it to be unwise, immoral and illegal for the General Assembly to speak for all Presbyterians on such a matter and in such a way. I believe the commissioners have been misled in making such a vote. While I certainly am not an expert in "just war" theory, I am informed enough on the subject to believe that our actions do meet the "just war" conditions. Saddam Hussein's defiance of many UN resolutions, especially the last one gave the U.S. led coalition a "just ad bellum" to remove him. In addition, his repeated violations of the cease fire agreement signed after the 1991 Gulf War, I believe, is cause enough alone under international law to restart the hostilities. The statements by the Presbyterian pastor from Iraq are unfathomable to me. How could anyone say life was better under that ruthless, lawless, murdering thug? Saddam's support for and harboring of many terrorists is another just reason to have removed him. I believe the commissioners, and the leaders of the Presbyterian Church do not understand the nature of the war we are in. They should all read The Crisis of Islam by Bernard Lewis. It would keep them awake at night praying that God himself ends this mess the world is in. But the additional thing that pains me to my soul is that the Presbyterian Church will so readily condemn this war but cannot manage to condemn even partial-birth abortion, let alone most abortions (except for the few cases of rape, incest or babies so badly formed that they would be unlikely to live when born. I have my doubts about even these cases). I believe it is unwise, immoral and should be illegal for the murder of 700,000 to 900,000 children of God a year in this country. In the years since Roe vs. Wade more have been killed than in all the wars this country has fought. May God have mercy on the Presbyterian Church. The issues of ordination and defiance of the Presbyterian Constitution, while important to me also, are secondary and pale in significance to the above issues. Wayne Kindt Sarasota, Fla. Harvard law professor says PCUSA has committed a 'grievous sin' August 17, 2004 "Church plan is ignorant and bigoted." This was the headline in today's edition of the St. Petersburg Times, written by Alan Dershowitz, Harvard law professor. He says that the Presbyterian Church (USA) has committed a grievous sin. Fifteen column inches later he concludes by saying, "Unless the church rescinds this immoral, sinful and bigoted denigration of the Jewish state, it will be participating in anti-Jewish bigotry and the encouragement of terrorism." I can only conclude that the leadership in Louisville is sending our church straight to hell. Jack Vanderbleek, elder Northeast Presbyterian Church St. Petersburg, Fla. May our story bless many lives August 17, 2004 Thank you for telling our story. I hope it will be used to bless many lives and encourage those who may have doubts about the blessing of life, God's sovereignty and our need to surrender it all to him. Please send a copy of the publication this article was in. Tara Winter East Stroudsburg, Pa. National Capital Presbytery executive feels 'shunned' by The Layman August 16, 2004 Parker, Parker, Parker. I sit by the phone waiting for you to call me here in my new post as general presbyter of National Capital Presbytery and just when you have the perfect opportunity, you choose not to. I feel … well … shunned. In your recent front-page article, "Shunned," featured the perspective of the Right Rev. David Githii, moderator of the Presbyterian Church of East Africa. In that article you refer to National Capital Presbytery's partnership relationship with our dear brothers and sisters in Christ there in Elburgon Presbytery. You present Rev. Githii's voice but no other. I note with amazement that you did not attempt to call me! You didn't attempt to call Rev. Jon Chapman, the area coordinator for Southern and East Africa with the Worldwide Ministries Division! Are we not brothers in Christ? Your article is so misinformed and intent on being inflammatory that I am compelled to respond. 1. National Capital Presbytery has enjoyed an eight-year long partnership relationship with Elburgon Presbytery that has evidenced the abundant fruit of the Holy Spirit in dozens of our congregations. Some of the ministry relationships with our congregations go back as far as 17 years. 2. National Capital Presbytery is a remarkably diverse presbytery that did vote by a two-third to one-third margin to petition the General Assembly to remove G-6.0106b from the Book of Order. We have "more light" congregations. We have "confessing" churches. Indeed 11:00 am on Sunday morning is decisively not a segregated hour in Presbyterian churches here. We have nine new International/Immigrant groups, one of which is a Kenyan/East African congregation. This presbytery does not speak with one voice very often. It's part of its charm and beauty. 3. I was at the General Assembly meeting where I met the Right Rev. David Githii for the first time. In contrast with your article, my impression was that Rev. Githii, moderator of the PCEA, was warmly greeted at every turn. I count four conversations I had with Rev. Githii during the General Assembly, all of them with the intent of developing a relationship together that might open a way through the impediments that threaten the long partnership that National Capital Presbytery has shared with the Elburgon Presbytery in Kenya. I know also that the moderator of National Capital Presbytery, Rev. Bill Teng (a PFR board member) also shared several conversations with him. He certainly was not shunned by any National Capital Presbytery people. Indeed, he was sought out with regularity and welcomed warmly. I see his picture in "Presbyterians Today" leading a worship service at the assembly. Doesn't seem like "shunning" to me! I am surprised Rev. Githii had such an impression. Perhaps cultural differences have occasioned the difference in perception. However, if The Layman is correct in quoting Githii, who is reported to have likened National Capital Presbytery to "the devil," then I expect any warmth on our part might have been mistaken for proximity to hell's fire. 4. The meeting with the presbytery executives was set up at least a month before the GA meeting by the Worldwide Ministries Division. It may have been planned well ahead of that, however Rev. Jon Chapman, the man called by God to coordinate these African ministries for the PCUSA, is about the Lord's work at the Alliance of Reformed Churches meeting in Ghana this week. (I did try to call him.) The meeting at the General Assembly was not some sudden response to Rev. Githii's perceived slighting as your article implies. At this meeting I also offered a heartfelt apology for the unfortunate comments that were made about the PCEA. The director of Worldwide Ministry Division, Rev. Marian McClure strongly echoed the same remorse and apology. You have recounted the Rev. Susan Andrew's heartfelt apology and Rev. Githii's spurning of it. While the conversation was direct, it was by no means rude as The Layman suggests. This was a meeting called to honestly share and clarify differences while seeking a path through this impasse. 5. National Capital Presbytery has yet to receive any letter from the PCEA in regard to our partnership with the Elburgon Presbytery. I have specifically asked Rev. Githii for such. Our present agreement with the Elburgon Presbytery is a commitment to working with our national judicatories in order that we might continue this partnership relationship which we have each found enriching and profound. We will continue our partnership unless specifically requested by Elburgon Presbytery that our partnership relationship must end. Our ear is tuned to our partners in mission in Elburgon Presbytery. 6. We are aware that lives are at stake around the continued relationship we share and have jointly constructed over the past eight years. We hope you are as well. It's not about the money; it's about the lives of human beings. These are brothers and sisters in Christ whose names we know and repeat in our daily prayers, whose necks we have embraced, whose ministries we share, and some of whose lives depend upon those ministries. You will forgive us, I hope, if we refuse to play fast and loose with the lives of our beloved brothers and sisters. 7. The group of pastors and lay leaders from Elburgon Presbytery who came on the recent visit to National Capital Presbytery received verbal and written communications from Rev. Githii acknowledging and encouraging their visit. These communications did precede the mid-April PCEA Council action which "noted with concern the influence of gayism and lesbianism in some congregations abroad which have partnerships with our church. The GAC has resolved to distance itself from such congregations and also to cancel the partnerships with those churches that have embraced these acts." However, this action was not communicated ahead of this mid-May visit. Our partnership presbytery reports that it received no communication from the PCEA instructing them not to send their delegation, nor did National Capital Presbytery. The only communication we received was a relayed email "press release" received by our GA office. Our partners indicated they were free to come. We went ahead with the visit in mid-May and were spiritually rewarded by it as we have been over the years of previous visits. 8. I personally pled with Rev. Githii that he not deal punitively with the visiting pastors given the absence of communication from the PCEA office to no avail. As you see, he blames National Capital Presbytery but he seems intent on punishing our mission partners. We continue to hold up these good saints in prayer. 9. The accusation that National Capital Presbytery endorses "gayism" is outlandish. This has been communicated to Rev. Githii directly by me and by our moderator, Rev. Bill Teng. The presbytery has taken no such action. Our congregations do include good and faithful disciples of Jesus Christ who are gay and lesbian, straight and celibate, black and white and every other color of the rainbow. Our congregations "welcome all persons who respond in trust and obedience to God's grace in Jesus Christ and desire to become part of the membership and ministry of his church. No persons shall be denied membership because of race, ethnic origin, worldly condition, or any other reason not related to profession of faith. Each member must seek the grace of openness in extending the fellowship of Christ to all persons. Failure to do so constitutes a rejection of Christ himself and causes a scandal to the gospel." (Book of Order: G-5.0103) Rev. Dr. G. Wilson Gunn Jr., general presbyter National Capital Presbytery A father's letter to his Marine son August 16, 2004 Donald Denton, a Presbyterian minister and counselor, wrote the following letter to his son, who serves in the U.S. Marines Corps. Dear Matthew, Given the pace and focus of your military duties and your impending marriage, I doubt you have kept up with the policies and pronouncements of our denomination. Thus it may surprise you that the Presbyterian Church (USA) has declared the war in Iraq "unwise, illegal and immoral." The usual suspects among America's religious communities echo this sentiment while at the same time urging one and all to be respectful of one another and "supportive of the troops." Unfortunately, this kind of double-talk from the usual suspects is all too predictable. They believe you can call someone's conduct foolish, illegal and immoral without impugning their character and Christian faith. They likewise believe they can malign the character and motives of a Marine's commander-in-chief without somehow undermining the very morale, good order and discipline that exemplify genuine support for those who are under arms and in harm's way. Matthew, it is such fundamental hypocrisy and insincerity that may rightly cause you to question the relevance of the church to your life as well as the patriotism of people who take a position that lends encouragement to tyrants while crippling those who come as liberators and genuine peacemakers. My greatest concern is this: that in rightly rejecting the seditious statements of such ineffective and myopic church councils you will also neglect the true nurture of your soul. I worry too that you will come to believe that such statements are representative of the American people or even representative of a majority within the Presbyterian Church (USA). Nothing could be further from the truth. So here is my counsel to you as you prepare to deploy to Fallujah with the 15th MEU(SOC). Do your duty as a Marine. Follow the lawful orders of your superiors. Be especially vigilant if your duty requires you to maintain the security of your fellow Marines. Your adversary will trade upon your natural sympathies and kindheartedness by using civilians, women and children as agents and shields. This is a mark of their perversity; protecting your fellow Marines and true non-combatants is a mark of your fidelity. This will call for both great wisdom and split-second obedience from you. This is the crucible in which great hearts find themselves capable of great mercy and competent peacemaking. It is the very same crucible through which both the greatest heroes of this nation have passed as well as the forge that implanted the steel of faith in the soul of your grandfather and myself. Be reassured: in the days and months ahead and in the time of fiery trial you will not be alone nor will you be abandoned or reviled upon your return to this nation's sacred shores. Semper Fi! Dad (Donald D. Denton Jr.) Jewish 'neighbor' accepts PCUSA's call for dialogue August 16, 2004 (Editor's note: The following letter was sent to Rev. Jay Rock, with copies to Dr. Kirkpatrick and others.) I assume that you are no longer planning to respond to my email of July 15, 2004. I hope that the Presbyterian Church (USA) will respond to this new email. I have heard your call for "respectful conversation with our Jewish neighbors." I wish to accept that invitation. At the time I wrote my email of July 15, 2004, I had not realized that Item 12-01 Resolution on Israel and Palestine (found at http://www.pcusa.org/interfaith/pdf/resolution12-01.pdf) contained the rationale for the PCUSA's divestment resolution. Quite frankly, if the conditions in Israel and Palestine were as described in Item 12-01 and if the historical synopsis were accurate, I would applaud your decision to engage in economic warfare against Israel. I might even wonder why you fail to support the Hamas platform in its entirety. If one takes Item 12-01 at face value, one could only conclude that all the actions of the Jews of Israel in regards to the Arabs have been consistently evil, and all the responsibility for all the conflict since 1920 lies with the Jews. An uncritical acceptance of all the points made in Item 12-01 clearly suggests that all Arab violence against Jews has been understandable, if not ethically justifiable, and has played no part in the creation and continuation of this war without end. Arab hatred of Jews is irrelevant, if it exists at all. Since the Palestinians are blameless, they have neither the responsibility nor even the opportunity to make peace a possibility. All immigration of Jews into the Land of Israel was wrong, and the behavior of those Jews provoked justifiable anger and violence. I wonder if the PCUSA has considered undertaking a review of its position in light of the torrent of criticism you have received, much of it pointing out that Item 12-01 presents a perspective that is more accurately described as polemic, replete with distortions, omissions, errors and hyperbole, than as a serious scholarly historical analysis. Food For Thought: To begin our conversation, I have a number of questions for you to consider. I urge you to accept my assurance that my questions are intended to be thought provoking, and they call for explicit answers. I do not intend my questions to be understood as either sarcastic or rhetorical. I ask that you accept that I am a fellow G-d-Fearer, a man who seeks to speak with integrity. Does the PCUSA plan to seek to understand why, despite its demurrals, its Jewish critics do not regard the PCUSA's posture as "intense disagreements regarding appropriate approaches to Israeli-Palestinian peace," but rather as an egregious attack against Israel and Jews in general, and as an implicit endorsement of Arab terror? Does the PCUSA realize that for the most part, its critics are not challenging its preference for a two-state peace based on the pre-1967 armistice line? The righteousness of your concern for the Palestinians is not being challenged, either. With all due respect, Stated Clerk Kirkpatrick's statement of July 20, 2004 does not hint at any consideration of any specific issues raised by any of the church's critics. There certainly is no suggestion of taking any responsibility for the shattering of Jewish trust in the PCUSA. There is no hint of seeking to understand why many of us conclude that Dabru Emet does not apply to the PCUSA. I hope the PCUSA will endeavor to understand why your redefinition of the "selective" aspect of your divestment proposal has not mollified your critics at all. Has the PCUSA considered engaging in a thorough review, item by item, of its version of the history of the conflict? Is the PCUSA prepared to reconsider its position if it can be shown that its historical synopsis is seriously flawed? Does the PCUSA recognize anything positive in any actions or policies of the Jews of Israel, in the context of relations with the Arabs? Does the PCUSA recognize any actions or policies of the Palestinians that have prevented a peaceful settlement? Have any of the Arab countries acted to prevent a peaceful settlement? Has the PCUSA noticed the distinct pattern that Palestinian terror attacks peak whenever there is any hopeful step towards peace? Does this lend support to the PCUSA decision to focus its energy into an economic war against Israel? The educational systems, media and mosques of the Arabic world have long been awash with the most vicious anti-Jewish propaganda. The vilest Jew-hatred canards derived from Christendom have been absorbed by, and are trumpeted from mainstream Arabic newspapers and TV, leading mosques, universities and by high government officials. Does the PCUSA regard this as having any relevance to the apparent insolubility of this seemingly endless war? Yasser Arafat and the Palestini