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2004 letters to the editor Archives of letters to the editor  |
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should assimilate the facts that emerge from debate May 28, 2004 Having the debate is a stroke of genius and the Lay Committee is to be commended for taking this step. Hopefully, the transcript can be made available on this Web site and perhaps delivered to the commissioners before their arrival in Richmond as they will be inundated with all sorts of distractions at that time. Each of us should assimilate the facts that emerge from this debate and take the time to contact the commissioners from our presbyteries. They need to know that we will be praying for them to act with courage and a conviction that surely calls for new leadership in the face of the present disaster. John Cowan Cartersville, Ga. Editor's Note: The transcript of the debate will be made available on this Web site, and copies will be provided to all commissioners to the 216th General Assembly upon their arrival in Richmond. Stated clerk debate a service to the church May 28, 2004 The Presbyterian Lay Committee is to be commended for this service to the PCUSA. It is imperative that we have the best-qualified person to fill this most important position. It also will be of the greatest benefit to the PCUSA to have a person in this position who will do his duty as the Book of Order and the Constitution outline, as the present man, Clifton Kirkpatrick, will not do this. Bud Olinger, Elder First Presbyterian Church El Dorado Springs, Mo. About the stated clerk's race May 28, 2004 Just curious as to why we are diluting the votes against Kirkpatrick by running 3 people against him - all of whom, I believe, have similar views. Why not use just one of those persons to run against Kirkpatrick and quite possibly beat him in the election? 3 Fred Bierly Church ought to reach out to Muslims with good news of Jesus May 28, 2004 This story about a Presbyterian Church leasing their facility to a Muslim school is so very sad. What has the church come to? I cannot help but think that God is not pleased that people professing to be Christians should support the propagation of a false religion in this way. Rather than taking their money and allowing them to teach their false doctrines to those children, that church ought to be reaching out to them with the Good News about Jesus. But I suppose the fact that the pastor of the church actually thinks that the Lord Jesus is the same God as Allah tells us why he cannot see this. Allah is no different from Ba'al, Molech, Zeus, Chemosh, or any of the other false deities of the gentiles. To say that this abomination is the same God as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob takes a blindness that is so very sad. The only hope for this world is in Christ and Him crucified. Why oh why do we water down the Good News and give people the idea that there is any other hope? We should preach Christ even if it is in a tent. "Even so, come quickly, Lord Jesus." Rev. Austin Olive Faith Presbyterian Church (EPC) Covington, La. Will the steeple be changed into a mosque-style dome? May 28, 2004 How much more will Caldwell Memorial Presbyterian Church, under the leadership of the Rev. Dr. McDonald, tolerate? Possibly they could scrape up enough money to change the steeple into a mosque-style dome. How much light shines from Caldwell Memorial with the symbols of the Lord hidden even from its membership? Jesus said that if we were ashamed of Him, He would certainly be ashamed of us when we stood before the Father in His glory. Bob Campbell, elder Kingman Presbyterian Church Kingman, Ariz. There's a weakness in Caldwell Memorial May 28, 2004 Caldwell Memorial Presbyterian Church has let the fox in the hen house and now the fox wants, and does, control policy. Would any of us give in to someone coming into our homes and dictating how we should live in our homes? Common sense says, "No." Except in Caldwell's case, Caldwell says, "Yes." If our cross and stained glass windows offend you, we will cover up the same, since we need the money. We want to be politically correct; we are to be modern; maybe you will become Christian. How sad, shameful to give in to those who seek to destroy us. No matter how you reason it, Islam is here to take us over, and I rest my case with Caldwell. Louis S. Nowasielski Pittsburgh, Pa. Choking on the solid food of the Gospel May 28, 2004 Someone, please, feed Earl Apel some milk! He's choking on the solid food of the Gospel (Heb. 5:11-14). James D. Berkley Bellevue, Wash. Please consider church where Apel serves as deacon May 28, 2004 I have read the informed and detailed replies to the way-off-base thinking in Mr. Earl Apel's letters. While I would never attempt to belittle his thinking, I would ask, however that one consider the church he is a deacon at – Mt. Auburn in Cincinnati, Ohio. Does the name A Stephen Van Kuiken, et. al bring light to Mr. Apel's theology? I am surprised he has not moved on with "Rev." Steve. Keep up the good work. James W. Brown Jr. Response to Apel's question, 'If God truly curses …' May 28, 2004 I think Mr. Apel needs to reflect on the purity, righteousness and holiness of God in relationship to the impurity, unrighteousness and un-holiness of sin. When Adam and Eve sinned, they had to be punished. God issued a warning that they would die if they disobeyed Him; they disobeyed, and they were cursed. The Webster's Collegiate Dictionary defines curse as "evil or misfortune that comes as if in response to imprecation or as retribution." Sin is serious; when we sin, we open ourselves up to evil and are subject to God's judgment. God, who is holy, cannot be in the presence of sin. That's why Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden. God does not want to curse us or does not curse simply by whim, but because there must be a consequence for disobedience. Deuteronomy 27 contains a whole list of things that are contrary to God's laws and says that the person who does any of these things will be cursed. The following chapter, Deuteronomy 28, contains a list of ways those obedient to God will be blessed. Satan can accuse (Zech 3:1), Satan can enter a person (Judas) ( Lk. 22:3), Satan leads the whole world astray (Rev. 12:9), Satan is a deceiver (Rev. 20:10), Satan can do counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders (2 Thess. 2:9), etc. Nowhere did I find any reference in Scripture that says that Satan has either the power or the authority to curse. The whole purpose for the Incarnation was so that Jesus might become the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29, NIV). We are the ones who sinned and the result of that sin was a curse. The purpose of being a Christian is to have that curse removed by having faith in Jesus, by believing that He bore the sins of the world on the Cross. Rev 22:1-3 (NIV) tells us that in heaven the curse will have been removed and we will have the kind of relationship with God that Adam and Eve had before they sinned. "Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him." God can be a loving God and God can curse. God sent Jesus into the world so that those who believe in Him can have eternal life in heaven. John 3:16-18 (NIV) states: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." In the end, God will judge and place the curse of their sin upon those who don't repent: "This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matt. 13:49-50, NIV) Jesus Christ died on the Cross to remove the curse of sin from us, to offer us the free gift of God's grace – forgiveness of sin and eternal life in heaven. To God be the glory! Kirk of the Hills Tulsa, Okla. Peggy A. Alexander, elder Kirk of the Hills Tulsa, Okla In further response to Earl Apel May 28, 2004 I've wondered for some time why Earl Apel and others insist on remaining part of the Presbyterian Church (USA) and changing its stance on homosexual relations rather than moving to another denomination, such as the MCC or the UCC, which has abandoned the orthodox position on homosexuality. The argument I've heard in return amounts to, "I'm Presbyterian and I'm going to stay Presbyterian," and I'll grant that has some force, if not enough in my opinion. In Mr. Apel's case, however, I'm now all the more confused because he clearly isn't Presbyterian -- not theologically, anyway. Even granting the point Ed Koster made in a letter posted on Presbyweb, that the PC(USA) has softened its doctrinal distinctiveness in recent years, it's still thoroughly Reformed in its theological affirmations, where Mr. Apel, not to put too fine a point on it, isn't. And he's an ordained deacon! What have they been doing at Mt. Auburn, anyway? So, though it seems a little embarrassing to explain basic Reformed (and thus Presbyterian) theology to an ordained officer of the church -- and though I'm just a simple country preacher, no professor of theology --I'll try to offer some response to Mr. Apel's confusions. First, to say that God curses evil is not to say that God wants to curse people. Granted, there is a stream in the Reformed tradition (the roots of which can be traced all the way back to Beza) which would argue that he does – any student of Presbyterian history knows that – but that isn't what any of Mr. Apel's respondents were saying. The point here, rather, is that God is utterly intolerant of sin. It isn't his desire to curse any (Deuteronomy 30:15-20), for he desires that all should come to repentance (Ezekiel 33:11, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9), but those who will not repent will perish (Luke 13:1-5), because he is perfectly holy (Leviticus 11:44, Matthew 5:48, 1 Peter 1:16; cf. 1 Thessalonians 4:7) and vehemently hates sin (Psalms 5:5, 11:5, 45:7, Proverbs 6:16, 11:20, 15:9-10, 28:9, for starters). Thus God will curse the enemies of his faithful people (Deuteronomy 30:6-7, Isaiah 37:36-38); thus he will judge the evils of the nations (Isaiah 34:1-2); and thus, if his people cease to be faithful, then there are curses waiting for us as well (Deuteronomy 28:15-68 – a passage Mr. Apel didn't address in any way – Hosea 12:2, Amos 4:6-13, 6:8, Malachi 1:14) – and anyone who doesn't believe that should spend some time considering the exile. God is absolutely holy and will not tolerate sin in anyone for any reason, which is why the prophets warn that the Day of the Lord will be a dark and terrible day for many (Isaiah 13:6-9, Joel 2:1-17, Amos 5:18-20, Malachi 3:1ff). Second, Mr. Apel writes, "Why should Christ die on the cross if we are to believe that God truly wants to curse us? Doesn't that make Christ's death in vain?" but (once the above-noted error is corrected) this gets the matter backwards. It's precisely because God hates evil and has pronounced a curse on all sin that Christ had to die, because it was that curse which Christ absorbed for our sake in his death on the cross. Were God the milquetoast bless-but-don't-curse God Mr. Apel presents, what need would there have been for the cross? The crucifixion points us not to Mr. Apel's conclusion, that God doesn't curse, but rather to the recognition that his curse is a far greater thing than we understand, that his hatred of sin is far stronger than we can comprehend, that his holiness is far higher than we know, if this was the price required to satisfy them. The cross shows us how great are the demands of God's holiness, and how far his love is willing to go to meet them on our behalf – and thus how great a debt we owe, and how seriously we should take his call to live holy lives. Third, the root error in Mr. Apel's logic appears to be his parenthetical observation, "You can't curse if you are loving." Sounds good, but it doesn't logically follow. God curses sin because he loves his creation and sin blights it. For the elect, those who accept Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, Christ bears the curse. Those who don't, who elect to hold on to their sin, bear the curse themselves. Fourth, where, biblically, does Mr. Apel get the idea that Satan curses? Nowhere in Scripture does it say so; nowhere is Satan represented as cursing anyone, or as having the power to curse anyone. The verb is used with God as the subject, but not with "Satan" or "devil." In fact, the first two chapters of Job make it very clear that Satan's ability to do evil is utterly constrained by the hand of God, for it is only by God's permission that Satan can do anything to Job at all. Further, in the translations I commonly use, the only place where any form of "curse" occurs together with "Satan" or "devil" is Matthew 25:41, where Jesus is the one calling people accursed; far from being the one doing the cursing, the devil is on the other end of that curse, together with all those who fall under Christ's judgment. Fifth, the great issue here is the sovereignty of God; this brings up another text to which Mr. Apel didn't respond, Isaiah 45:5-7. In this passage, God flatly declares, "I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things" (Isaiah 45:6b-7, ESV). God shows himself in this passage, and throughout Scripture, as completely sovereign in everything. Within the great stream of Christian orthodoxy, there have been disputes as to what exactly that meant and how exactly it played itself out, but there has been no dispute with the statement, "I am the Lord, and there is no other." Even the devil is under God's authority, as Job demonstrates. By contrast, Mr. Apel's view, in which "God blesses and Satan curses," affirms Satan as an independent agent, perhaps weaker than God but outside the scope of his sovereignty; as such, it's far more in line with dualists like Manichees and Zoroastrians than it is with historic Christian orthodoxy. It's particularly out of line with the Reformed tradition, which affirms in no uncertain terms the specific sovereignty of God at every point. This is not to deny our own status as free moral agents, but it is to affirm that in every act, every event, every decision we make, God is Lord, and none of them happen apart from his will. Thus Satan cannot be said to curse, because he lacks the authority; only God is Lord, only he is in control, and there is no other. Sixth, Mr. Apel asks, "If God truly curses then why should we be Christians in the first place?" He asks this question because, he asserts, "this would be a God that simply by whim just likes to curse for the heck of it when God pleases." The problem is that his statement doesn't follow in the slightest; to say that God curses is not to say anything at all about why God curses. Indeed, Scripture makes quite clear, as already noted, that God curses sin because of his own absolute holiness. This, then, points us to an answer to Mr. Apel's question – but, I suspect, a very different one than he's looking for. From the tenor of his letter, it seems to me that his proposed reason for being a Christian is that God is a loving God who only blesses us and affirms us and gives us good things, who never punishes us or sends us bad things. From my point of view, that sort of God might be worthy of affection but would fall far short of meriting our worship. The biblical God, by contrast, is quite another matter. Why be Christians in the first place? Because the God we worship is Lord of all and the source of all good things; because he made everything that is; because he is utterly holy and good and great and glorious, and when we have once met him, worship is the only possible response; because he has cursed all that is evil and will certainly destroy it, including the evil that lives in each of us; because, though he allows evil to continue for now, he will turn all of it for good in the end; because he is the only God who is, and all other Gods, all other faiths, all other philosophies, all other hopes are false; and for many other reasons as well. Rev. Rob Harrison Grand Lake, Colo. Response to Earl Apel's Second Missive May 28, 2004 In his second letter as in his first, Earl Apel exhibits a dualistic worldview. That is, he believes that God and Satan are two eternal entities, one good and the other evil, battling one another in a colossal arena for the souls of men and women who must decide between them. In this simplistic worldview, to bless is necessarily associated with the good God and to curse is necessarily associated with the wicked Satan. Reality, however, is quite different. God alone is eternal, omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. Satan is only a creature, like us, with a fixed beginning and a fixed end. Indeed, he is more powerful than us, and for that he must be respected, as respect is given to a ferocious carnivore, a hostage-taking terrorist or a severe thunderstorm. But he is not to be feared, in that he does not have the power to condemn. He is not the judge over fallen humanity. That prerogative belongs to God alone (Mt. 10.28). Sin, to quote the Book of Confessions, "is any want of conformity unto, or transgression of, the law of God" (7.014). God, as the holy and righteous judge over all, judges sin according to its severity in His eyes. When the Bible speaks of God cursing, it is in reference to His righteous judgment against fallen man. We have all sinned, and are therefore under the curse of sin -- of sin's presence, sin's power and sin's penalty. The curse of sin is this, that we should reap all its bitter consequences, including its ultimate penalty -- death, and that we should be subjected to the debasing of our thoughts to be captivated to its utter futility. Although God is not the author of sin, He is its judge – He is the one who will ultimately bring about its final destruction, along with all those who cling to it. Jesus Christ became the curse for us (as Paul stated in Gal. 3.13-14, which both Mr. Apel and I stated in our previous letters), receiving in His flesh all the bitter consequences, including the humiliating death on the Cross, on our behalf, that we who believe and trust in Him alone should be delivered from the curse of sin. When He died on the behalf of the elect and rose again from the grave, He delivered us from the penalty of sin. Through the instrumentality of the Holy Spirit working within us and through us to sanctify us, He delivers us from the power of sin. Ultimately, when He returns in power and glory at the end of history, we who are found in Him shall be raised from the dead incorruptible, to be delivered from the presence of sin in order to enjoy the presence of God forevermore. God's curses are His judgments, and they are by no means whimsical or frivolous, as Mr. Apel has alleged. "He is the Rock, His work is perfect; for all His ways are justice, a God of truth and without injustice; righteous and upright is He" (Dt. 32.4). He lacks not for knowledge, wisdom, or veracity. Therefore, His judgments – His curses – are true. To be sure, God most certainly blesses, and for this we must be thankful. But to pretend that God only blesses and does not curse is to substitute an idol of our own making for the one true God, which is dishonorable to, not to mention an egregious sin against, Him. Loren Golden Overland Park, Kan. 'No curse' is from Lite Presbyterians May 28, 2004 Mr. Apel is one of the new Lite Presbyterians who believes all may freely sin without fear of God's wrath. Nine commandments are nearly as good as ten. There's not much use in referring Mr. Apel to Scripture. He has his own interpretations. He has persuaded himself that God doesn't care about immorality and evil. God is redefined in the new post-modern terms as having a mind like Rosie O'Donnell and Susan Andrews. All those notions from the previous 19 centuries were just misreading of Scripture. God has learned a thing or two in recent years, and now knows what Rosie and Susan knows, that the old perversions are really all right because they re-affirm every person's right to sexual gratification, which is what God really wants for us. Philip Pettus Pasadena, Calif. Philip Pettus Pasadena, Calif. God curses sin, God curses the wicked May 28, 2004 I appreciate the obvious earnest hunger that Earl C. Apel has to understand the Word of God. I am also impressed that he quotes from the King James version of the Holy Bible. I have spent quite a bit of time and energy studying and praying for the Holy Spirit to give me understanding of this very issue. In answer to his question, "Why one should bother being a Christian in the first place," I can say that it is ONLY if we accept the Lord that the verse he aptly quotes from Galatians applies. Jesus came to save all mankind, but unfortunately there are some who reject the salvation which He freely offers. The undeniable fact is that God does curse. It is precisely because of His great love for His creation that He has done this. It is not proper for the created thing to look at the Creator and tell Him what is proper for Him to do. God curses sin – God curses the wicked – God curses Satan. One great day (sooner than we may think), we will see the return of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, coming on the clouds of Heaven, and Satan will be finally and completely overthrown. Until then, make every effort to live a holy life that pleases God. Brian Ahier The Dalles, Ore. Regarding Apel: 'If God truly curses then why should we be Christians?' May 28, 2004 Simple answer: To escape the curse (of being unable to keep the Law) and be saved by Jesus Christ (who bears the penalty for us not being able to keep the Law). Ken Swanson Leonardo, N.J. Committee leadership looks like it may be stacked May 28, 2004 I could be wrong, but I fear that we are in for another hell of a year at the next General Assembly. I just read the moderator's choices for the various committees and, on the surface, the leadership in certain committees looks really stacked, and not much for the touted "diversity" that certain groups are always talking about. I will admit up front that I don't know almost any of the individuals named; and that there can be conservative or moderate pastors in liberal presbyteries, and liberal and moderate pastors in conservative presbyteries (though I struggle with what "moderate" means other than "Can't we all get along, here?" people who refuse to recognize the vast divides theologically and ideologically between even "non-fringe" conservatives and liberals). All that being said, and based (I admit) on the presbyteries of origin alone, again I wonder about the balance of the moderator's choices. Take a look at some of the most important committees (listed below), and their chosen leadership. Then take a look at some of the presbyteries involved. Hudson River, source of the greatest number of churches willing to defy the constitution, will control the Bills and Overtures committee, where they determine the placement, priority and recommendations for all bills and overtures. Heartland – not as well known, but I believe (correct me if I am wrong) they have voted against 6.0106b, and for every attempt to remove it or modify it since it passed. They also voted for the blessing of same-sex relationships amendment. They will be controlling the Church Polity committee, and are accompanied by Baltimore and Twin Cities in leadership. Twin Cities – Source of several overtures calling for the removal not only of 6.0106b, they also lobby for the removal/invalidation of the authoritative interpretation of 1978. Their leadership has openly called for the immediate removal of such, and disobedience if necessary. Baltimore – Need I even speak of the presbytery that validated Don Stroud's ministry even after he openly declared his sexual activity outside of marriage, with a gay partner, in writing? About how its procedures are being investigated as irregular, because some of the appointed investigation committee refused to recuse themselves even though there were clear conflicts of interest? Yet, here they are on the committee that looks at defining polity and (I believe) works most closely with the stated clerk's staff? In the last committee I show (Church Orders and Ministry), I know George Baird personally, and he is a fine parliamentarian who will uphold the constitution and procedural rules as currently existing even where he may disagree with it. He is a wonderful resource and will do well. Yet, on this committee, he is the one located furthest east. All the other leaders are on the West Coast (forgive me if I am wrong about Central Washington). I am not making stereotype aspersions here; San Diego Presbytery is on the West Coast, and is one of the more conservative presbyteries in the denomination. But I do wonder about perspective. If someone could set my mind at ease, I would appreciate it greatly. But it would take quite a bit of doing, given the lineup our top official has presented. It seems – once again (please prove to me I'm wrong!) – that choices are being made along ideological lines, and it's more important to try and set up a "win" for her side than to achieve the balance that we Presbyterians have historically striven for. In the end, such practices simply further the erosion of trust in the leadership that exists in the pews, and the hemorrhaging of membership in our wonderful denomination. 2. Bills and Overtures Moderator: Nancy Thornton McKenzie BFC/Hudson River/Northeast Vice-Moderator: John Bell, Jr. WMC/Denver/Rocky Mountains Committee Assistant: Jill Hudson WFC/Whitewater Vly/Lincoln Trails Parliamentarian/ Recorder: Steve Smith WMC/Los Ranchos/So. CA & HI 4. Church Polity Moderator: Jeffrey Clayton WMC/Heartland/Mid-America Vice-Moderator: Annika Lister Stroope WFC/Twin Cities Area/Lakes & Prairies Committee Assistant: Howard Jackson BME/Baltimore/Mid-Atlantic Parliamentarian/ Recorder: Paul Hooker WMC/St. Augustine/So. Atlantic 5. Church Orders and Ministry Moderator :Scott Schaefer WMC/San Francisco/Pacific Vice-Moderator: Muriel Brown WFC/Central Wash/Alaska NW Committee Assistant: Sally Hinchman WFE/Stockton/Pacific Parliamentarian/ Recorder: George Baird WME/Lake Huron/Covenant Rev. Jon Evans Roscommon, Mich. Member at large Lake Huron Presbytery About the article on the Alpha Course May 28, 2004 Reading this article just reinforces my decision to leave the Presbyterian church two years ago. I now attend an independent church that averages 1,000 in attendance every Sunday. Seven years ago, it averaged 200. Can you guess what program was major factor in that growth? The Alpha Course. The way the PCUSA is going, it will be all but gone in the next 30 years and that is sad, for me and my family are lifelong Presbyterians. I am just glad I am gone. Good luck. Randy VanDeventer Manchester, N.H. Comparative decline in membership in the PCUSA May 28, 2004 At a recent book study meeting with fellow Presbyterian pastors in my area, I expressed concern at the high rate of decline in membership of the PCUSA, particularly as compared to other mainline denominations. The response of the other pastors was "Oh, the rate is not greater than others, and even if it seems that way, it's only because we keep our roles cleaner." Generally, I get the attitude, "Oh, you can't rely on what The Layman tells you," which, in fact, I do. I know I've seen reports from time to time, not only in The Layman. Can you provide some current info and indicate what the sources are please? Rev. Les Winters Editor's note: Some recent stories indicating the sources published in The Layman include "Staff cure for shrinkage;" "PCUSA's reasons for staggering loss;" and "ELCA has highest loss." Letter writers exhibit 'sanctimonious self-righteousness' May 28, 2004 The sanctimonious self-righteousness of those ready to hurl theological thunderbolts at the "wicked and wayward" continues to come to us in all its glory via letters to The Layman. While they readily paint "liberal Christians" (interestingly enough, Webster's definition of "liberal" includes the words "generous" and "openhanded" in the no. 2 spot -- surely qualities to be desired and manifested by all Christians) as "heretics and unbelievers" who disregard the Bible, they show no evidence of critical self-discernment. I believe our Lord had something to say about that sort of behavior, "Do not judge, so that you may not be judged." As to strict adherence to God's Word, do these pastors, elders, etc, propose that we should get rid of every minister who has been divorced? 1 Timothy plainly states that such persons are to be "married only once." What hermeneutical backflips enable them to pass this by like the priest on the road to Jericho and then shower condemnation when others do the same thing elsewhere? Turning to another passage of Scripture, we read Paul's words to the Galatians describing the works of the flesh that include "enmities, strife, anger, quarrels, dissensions, factions ...." If the shoe fits.… In contrast, the fruit of the Spirit, "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity (one of the marks of those dang liberals), faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control" often seem to be lacking in the fulminations of the self-appointed guardians of God's truth. Lost in the ongoing debate is any sense of God's grace that saves us – remember Reformed Theology 101? Salvation will not be ours because of where we stand on the issues of human sexuality, but because of what God has done for us in our Lord Jesus Christ. Yes, belief does matter, but our tradition also reminds us that the fullness of God's truth (in this world, anyway) remains beyond our grasp, and that because we see as "in a mirror, dimly," error in judgment and action accompanies us at our best, no less than at our worst. Rev. W. Patterson Lyles First Presbyterian Church Tullahoma, Tenn. Apel responds: 'If God truly curses then why should we be Christians?' May 27, 2004 Regarding letters in response to mine about the fact God does not curse, I would like to share some Scripture. I did look at my concordance as some suggest and the following verses are interesting from Galatians 3:11-14 (King James version). "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree. That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." I don't see God cursing us here, but rather affirming us that have faith. Isn't that the point of being a Christian? Regarding references to Revelation, it is clear to me that this is a battle between God and Satan. I do not see God cursing here. But rather God's light shines through in the end over evil and Satan is the one that truly condemns and curses humanity. Even in the Genesis account, it was the spirit of Satan that contributed to the downfall of humanity, not God. For humanity found the need to be powerful and controlling over others just like Satan. And to be that way is to be truly cursed. It seems to me humanity rightly cursed itself and the Biblical accounts are a reflection of that. But to say that God curses? If God truly curses then why should we be Christians in the first place? For it seems to me this would be a God that simply by whim just likes to curse for the heck of it when God pleases. And as a result there is no real trust that we can place in God. But we know better based on what God's son Jesus taught us. Honestly, why should Christ die on the cross if we are to believe that God truly wants to curse us? Doesn't that make Christ's death in vain? I again say credit must be given to where credit is due. Satan is the one that curses, not God. If people have a problem with that, then I don't understand why one should bother being a Christian in the first place. For then Christ's words about God being a loving God (you can't curse if you are loving) are simply not true. Earl C. Apel, deacon Mount Auburn Presbyterian Church Cincinnati, Ohio Apel, 'just read your Bible' May 27, 2004 While reading Earl Apel's letter of May 25, in which he wrote "[W]here does God curse in the first place? ... It seems to me that God always blesses …," I wanted to scream, "Earl, where do you get your wacko ideas? Read your Bible!" Might I suggest starting with Genesis 3:14: "The Lord God said to the serpent, 'Because you have done this, cursed are you among all the animals …"? And in 3:17 God curses the ground. (I realize that Genesis 3, which is about The Fall, kind of ruins the argument that whatever IS is good and should be celebrated, rather than fallen and in need of confession and repentance, but read it anyway.) Then go to Deuteronomy 28 to put to end the idea of a wimpy God who doesn't much care what we do, but only naively blesses us like a fairy godmother. The whole chapter will raise your eyebrows, but look at verse 58 for a good summation: "If you do not diligently serve all the words of this law that are written in this book, fearing this glorious and awesome name, the Lord your God, then the Lord will overwhelm both you and your offspring with severe and lasting afflictions and grievous and lasting maladies." Does God have your attention? There are curses galore in this chapter and the previous one. Then try Malachi 2:2: "If you will not listen, if you will not lay it to heart to give glory to my name, says the Lord of hosts, then I will send the curse on you and I will curse your blessings; indeed I have already cursed them, because you do not lay it to heart." Sounds pretty straight-forward to me, in this passage. Want it directly from Jesus? Go to Matthew 25:41: "You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels…." Just read your Bible. James D. Berkley Seattle, Wash. Roadside theology only gets you so far May 27, 2004 Roadside theology works in a church marquee. I've even seen a sign that says "God blesses, Satan curses." But that thinking only goes so far. It ends when you actually open your Bible and read it. In God's glory and sovereignty, God gives both the blessing and the curse. In fact, were it not for God's curse on humanity, which we justly deserved on account of the fall, there would be no need for the salvation in Christ Jesus. Indeed, let us "give credit where credit is due," and in all things give glory to God Almighty. With the feel-good theology espoused in this deacon's letter, (completely overlooking the witness of Scripture and the confessions), it is clear to see that he is on the fast track to ordination as an elder or minister in the PCUSA. Rev. Ethan D. Sayler Westminster Presbyterian Church P.S. I have provided the following citations, from Scripture and the confessions, so that, through the power of God's Holy Spirit, some insight might be imparted to those who walk in the darkness (this is only a sample, and it took me only 10 minutes to prepare):
When behavior violates God's standards it is God's Word that is found wanting May 27, 2004 Let me thank those who responded to Earl Apel's comments in reference to my recently published letter in which he asserts that "God always blesses, yet Satan curses." They saved me the time to write similarly, and they did exactly what Earl failed to do: they checked out God's Word first before making a theological claim. Over the years that I have written to The Layman Online (and other forums), Earl Apel has, at times, shared his thoughts and views on various topics I have addressed. As I reflect on this, the one constant has been his apparent ignorance or blatant rejection of the content and moral authority of the Word of God. But what else could I expect? This is typical of theological liberals (I cannot in good conscience speak of "liberal Christians" – is that an oxymoron?). When their behavior violates God's standards it is God's Word that is weighed and found wanting. It is God's Word that must be rejected, reinterpreted and re-imagined. To justify and normalize sinful death-styles, human experience must always trump God's revealed Word and will. This is why I have often said that Apel's theology is rotten to the core. And it is why I pray that he (and his fellow travelers) will repent, reject Satan and his death-dealing deceptions, and no longer be conformed to the standards of this world but in the power of the Holy Spirit be transformed by the renewal of his mind so that he may demonstrate what is the good and pleasing and perfect will of God. Meanwhile, no amount of discussion will cause God to bless what he has cursed. And I long for the day when God's faithful people will rise up and say "Enough is enough" and cast out he heretics and unbelievers among us. Rev. Bill Pawson Westminster Community Church Canton, Ohio A Confessing Church One more instance of a simplistic theology of 'God is Love' May 27, 2004 In response to Mr. Apel "God Blesses; Satan Curses" … God curses in the face of persistent sin. I humbly suggest a refresher course in the Scriptures. This is just one more instance of a simplistic theology of "God is Love" whose only recourse to deal with sin such as homosexuality is to deny the essence of sin. We are accepted as we are since "God always blesses." God is incapable of wrath or condemnation as this is against his nature of blessing. If God is omnipotent, provident creator and he never curses, then the full impact of sin in damaging our relationship with our Lord cannot be grasped. If God never curses there is no recourse against sin, and therefore either God isn't omnipotent as he is powerless to confront man's evil or there is no sin as there is no behavior sufficient to rouse wrath. Praise God that his Scripture shows us otherwise. First, I ask Mr. Apel to read Genesis. Find the three curses for man's sin that God decrees to Adam and Eve. Find the curse shortening man's days to limit his evil. Find the curse of multiple languages at the Tower of Babel to limit man's aspirations to reach the heavens. Find the story of Sodom and Gomorrah where an entire city is cursed to die for both their lack of hospitality and their desire for homosexual rape. Read the rest of God's glorious narrative of the Old Testament, constantly cursing (punishing) the people of Israel (witness Babylon) and sending prophets to call them to repentance until they recognize their sins and turn back. Finally, go to the New Testament. Examine Romans 1 … "God gave them over to a depraved mind." Satan did not curse them, but God removed his spirit so that they would be cursed. May God's people always be Israel, with a loving father willing to curse us for our sins until we might repent. Examine Christ himself. At the end of Mathew 25, Christ states a strong curse for those who failed to feed the least, "eternal punishment." In Luke 24: 46:47 Christ himself states clearly "Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead on the third day." God did not continue to bless in the face of human sin but cursed Christ on the cross on our behalf. If we do not worship a God capable of punishment and rebuke, then there was no need for Christ to die and we all worship a powerless lie. God is no daft father, failing to discipline his child and continuing to reward in the face of disobedience. Instead, he is a father who loves us enough to cause pain to save us from the greater pain of our continuing sin. God curses because he wants us to feel the pain caused by our sins and turn back to receive the blessings that come from righteousness. Rev. Pawson is right. No amount of discussion can bridge the gap here. We refuse to worship a powerless God who does not curse sin and we refuse to redefine sin so that we can claim God's blessings. Glenn Standifer Philadelphia, Pa. It matters who is elected in Richmond May 27, 2004 I was recently asked: "What is the difference whom we elect in the church? Does it really matter who misleads us?" That fact that we are being misled certainly matters. The loss of one member every 13 minutes certainly matters. Why? Here is a perfect example. I had a conversation yesterday with a young seminarian who had the opportunity to sit in a Christology class that was being visited by our current moderator. In the course of her talk to this class of future pastors, she told them that while Jesus was certainly her savior, he might not be for everyone. This, from the person elected to serve as moderator of the Presbyterian Church USA. Which of the essential tenets was she expositing here? Why? Ms Andrews has openly advocated for positions that conflict with Scripture and our confessions. That is why it matters who we elect in Richmond. Our current leadership – specifically the stated clerk and the moderator – are not serving the whole church. They are clearly partisan activists for a vocal, virulent minority committed to changing the church to reflect the more`s of culture. There are better choices. Speak to every commissioner you can reach. Encourage them to meet all of the candidates and to vote only for those committed to the essential tenets of our Reformed faith. The Rev. Dr. L. 'Rus' Howard is just such a leader. We cannot afford four more years of failed leadership which holds a third party boycott and support of money pit ecumenical failures such as the NCC and WCC as being more important than missionaries carrying the gospel message. Rev. Jim Yearsley Pittsburgh, Pa. Usury does not apply to banks May 27, 2004 The definition of usury in my unabridged dictionary refers to: "exorbitant or unlawful interest." This obviously would not apply to banks. Pete Simpson Bloomington, Minn. Look up 'cursed' in concordance May 26, 2004 The letter by Earl C. Apel is an example of Bible ignorance. All an individual has to do is go to a concordance and look up the word "cursed" and a vast number of Scriptures are revealed where God does in fact curse "some one, some thing, some act, etc." I counted 28 times in Genesis to Deuteronomy 27 and quit counting. Clearly our Mount Auburn elder was never spent much time in the Scripture. Robert A. Browne Clayton Presbyterian Church In Genesis, God cursed the serpent, the woman and the ground May 26, 2004 The answer to Earl C. Apel's question can be found in the third chapter of Genesis where God cursed the serpent above all other animals, God cursed the woman to have pain in childbearing and God cursed the ground to cause the man to work by his sweat to gain food. Also, Mr. Apel should read Deuteronomy 11:26ff where God sets forth both blessings and curses over the people depending whether or not they obey God. Satan only can operate within the creation and strives to further the work of sin in the world that God cursed because of sin. Lance Clemmons, pastor First Presbyterian Church Clovis, N.M. Obedience of God's laws is extremely important May 26, 2004 In response to Deacon Apel's question "Where does God curse?" let me refer him to Genesis 3:14-19 where God curses the serpent, Adam, Eve and the ground following Adam and Eve's sin in the Garden of Eden. I would also point Mr. Apel to Deuteronomy 28:15-48 where God lists the curses that will fall upon his people if they fail to be obedient to his laws. Scripture clearly says that God doesn't always bless when men and women refuse to obey his laws and moral standards. Obedience of God's laws is extremely important, and those in the PCUSA who think they can legislate their own moral standards are putting themselves in a situation where God's curses may come upon them. Further study of the Old Testament, particularly the prophets, will show numerous instances where God visited harsh judgment upon his people because they refused to turn from their sins and live in obedience to God. Peggy A. Alexander, elder Kirk of the Hills Tulsa, Okla. God can and does curse those who are disobedient May 26, 2004 I would like to offer some Scripture to Deacon Earl C. Apel concerning blessings and curses. God actually cursed Satan (Genesis 3:14) and he curses the house of the wicked (Proverbs 3:33). The Lord has set before us both blessings and curses (Deuteronomy 30:1-2) and places curses on the enemies of his children (Deuteronomy 30:7). Although children of God can not have a curse put on them by Satan (Hebrews 2:14, James 4:7, Romans 6:14), for they are covered under the Blood of the Lamb, God can and does curse those who are disobedient or slack in doing his work (Jeremiah 48:10). "This is what the LORD says: 'Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the LORD.'" (Jeremiah 17:5) (All scriptures are taken from the New International Version) Brian Ahier, deacon Gateway Presbyterian Church The Dalles, Ore. Apel should review his understanding of God's attributes and character May 26, 2004 Mr. Earl Apel, deacon from Cincinnati, in his reply intended to correct Rev. Bill Pawson, apparently believes "that God always blesses, yet Satan curses." Mr. Apel even begins his corrective letter by asking, "My question is, where does God curse in the first place?" I'd have to say that in my Bible, God first begins cursing in Genesis 3:14, continuing through verse 19, and he finishes near Rev. 20:15. Perhaps Mr. Apel should review his understanding of God's attributes and character. Stephen Johnson, elder St. Andrews Presbyterian Church Newport Beach, Calif. Apel should go back and read Deuteronomy and Isaiah May 26, 2004 Earl Apel says, "It seems to me that God always blesses, yet Satan curses." Well, it seems to me that Mr. Apel should go back and read Deuteronomy 28:15-68 and Isaiah 45:5-7. It also seems to me that if his understanding of God's sovereignty is really so limited, then his theology is in truth Arminian, which is a rather problematic thing for an ordained Presbyterian officer. Rev. Rob Harrison Grand Lake, Colo. Leaders are trying to take passages away from 'the guide book' May 26, 2004 Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. Martin Luther King Jr. My question is where does God curse in the first place? That seems to me an oxymoron. Isn't it more appropriate to say what Satan curses? Unless he suggests that God and Satan are one in the same. Otherwise, I don't get it. It seems to me that God always blesses, yet Satan curses. Let's give credit where credit is due. Earl C. Apel, deacon Mount Auburn Presbyterian Church Cincinnati, Ohio 26 See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse- 27 the blessing if you obey the commands of the LORD your God that I am giving you today; 28 the curse if you disobey the commands of the LORD your God and turn from the way that I command you today by following other gods, which you have not known. Deut. 11:26-28 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator – who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Romans 1:18-27 It is hard to be equipped for the work God has for us to do when our "leaders" keep removing passages from the "guide book." 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. II Tim. 3:16-17 James Tuckett The Old Gray Dog If you reject Biblical authority, anything goes May 26, 2004 Since the stated clerk backed the removal of the 10 commandments from the public, his knowledge of Holy Scripture and Reformed thought is contradictory. Contradictory in how America was founded, and how America's social and spiritual institutions are to receive guidance. The stated clerk is wrong on three counts. One, Kirkpatrick does not believe in the commitment of the Scriptures, because to Kirkpatrick, the Scriptures are not the Word of God, but becomes the Word of God, and takes a Barthian view of Scripture. Second, his epistemology is faulty, meaning his knowledge does not come from the Scriptures, but comes from the natural order of things. If his epistemology came from the Bible, he would reject, abortion on demand, which he accepts; he would reject same-sex marriage, he would reject the gay lifestyle. Third, he rejects the law of contradiction, because if Cliff believed in Biblical authority, he would have issued a statement supporting viewing the 10 Commandments in public places, since our nation was founded on religious freedom. The majority of the Founding Fathers a rejected state religion, and ensured the first amendment to the constitution would entitle freedom of worship, which Cliff rejects logically. Cliff would not agree with the last statement, but his logic supports the same. If you reject the 10 Commandments to be part of American culture, you reject Biblical authority to let freedom ring throughout the land, and all the inhabitants thereof; the Book of Leviticus. If you reject Biblical authority, anything goes, thus creating confusion and chaos in society. To allow the de-Christianizing of our nation is to allow the secularizing of America with the view that we can tolerant, and not speak against the same will bring untold misery and shame to America. Doe we want a stated clerk supporting Baal or Christ? Which will it be? Lou. S. Nowasielski Wilmington, Del. Is spirit of God working in the whole church? May 26, 2004 So, what's your beef with the Rev. Dr. Curtis Jones? Are you fearful that the Presbyterian Church might actually accomplish the goal of gaining more racial ethnic members? In this season of Pentecost, I ask, when was the last time The Layman had anything positive to say about the Spirit of God at work in the whole church and not just that part that they favor? Donald B. Register, pastor Sixth Race Presbyterian Church Chicago, Ill. Mueller: Immerse yourself in God's work May 26, 2004 The necessary course of action is quite clear here – the Falkland congregation should abandon the PCUSA completely and ordain Mark Mueller themselves and go about God's business instead of dealing with all of this idiocy! You people are so blinded by your bureaucracy that you cannot see that Gods work was taking place in Falkland until you got involved. How much clearer can this be? Was Jesus being preached? Was the Gospel being clearly presented? Were people coming to Christ and being discipled? Was the church growing? Was the Bible being taught clearly and accurately? If the answer to these questions is yes then it does not matter if Mueller ever gets a degree. Have you read the Biblical qualifications for ministry in 1 Tim.3, Titus and others likes 2 Tim. 2:14-15 (this passage even addresses quarreling)? This might be a good consideration for you as you seem to think that a degree is something required to be an effective minister for Christ. It is strange how this qualification is not listed there. I am stunned that you would place the results of someone's "psychobabble" test over the clear and obvious work that God was doing in Falkland. Your test indicates that the lowly, non-degreed Mueller is not fit to pastor yet God chose to use him to rebuild his church in Falkland instead of your many degreed and ordained pastoral pillars of the PCUSA. The failure of so many of these "pillars" that you sent to Falkland in light of the lowly and foolish Mueller's success must be a great embarrassment. Hmm, I read the Christ seems to have an affinity for the "foolish things" to confound the "wise." In case you don't recognize this, it is from 1 Cor. 1. This might also be a good read for you as not very long after this Paul chastises the Corinthians about divisions amongst them with regard to whose teaching they were following – hmm, again, this might actually be relevant to the issue here but I'll leave that for you to discover. This situation is a disgrace to Christ. It is no wonder that the unbelieving world looks at the church today and then goes to look for something else. And this is the biggest issue here – the complete lack of witness that you have to the world. It is no wonder that the PCUSA is dying – good riddance – the sooner the better as Christ does not need the bad publicity. As for me, I will just continue to teach and preach the Bible the way God has called me to at every opportunity and I will continue to take our people to the mission field in the Amazon (literally) as the Lord is bringing a great harvest there and I will continue to counsel the broken hearted and I will continue to rejoice with the joyful. In short, I will continue to immerse myself in God's work rather than this kind of bureaucratical meaninglessness and I would encourage Mark Mueller to do the same. Randy Manley |
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