October 2005 letters, page 2 Archives of letters to the editor

Perceived guidance of the Holy Spirit against Biblical basis is just feel goodism October 25, 2005 I cannot remember ever reading a stated position against homosexuality that was as clear, powerful and easy to understand as Robert Brown. The weak point of his argument is that you have to have some respect for Scriptural authority over secularism or political correctness. That is where our denomination's leadership differs with most Presbyterians. The perceived guidance of the Holy Spirit without or against Biblical basis is just feel goodism. This trendy ethic is what is guiding the leadership not truth! Douglas Anderson Southlake, Texas Open letter is correct October 25, 2005 I agree with Mr. Brown. John Buckingham MD Trussville, Ala. 'We must take our stand for Lord' October 25, 2005 I carefully read Robert Brown's article which was posted in the Layman Online today. Regarding it, I can only say – "Right on, my brother in Christ!" We Christians need to hear more of this inspirational word of the Holy Spirit, for we are in a war with Satan and the forces of evil. In my church, I am quite aware of the ramifications of this war. We must take our stand for Lord! May the Lord God Almighty bless and keep you always in the palm of his hand! Larry Paxton, elder Member, First Presbyterian Church of Hollywood Christians must surround minister with 'honest-to-goodness prayer' October 25, 2005 I have been a member of Fifth Avenue Presbyterian Church for over 10 years, having served as an officer for three years. Certainly, while this is a difficult time for all parties involved, we cannot lose sight of what is at the heart of our Christianity: Forgiveness, forgiveness, forgiveness. Certainly, this does not mean we must (or ought to) condone this behavior of such a high-profile minister as Dr. Tewell, but it does mean we must realize we are all human beings, and we do make mistakes. Sometimes our emotions clog clear thinking, sometimes our decisions are not well-thought-out and sometimes our actions cause an enormous rip-tide effect on a wide arena of people and institutions. Realizing these issues, we must surround Dr. Tewell and his family – and FAPC – with real, heart-wrenching, honest-to-goodness prayer. We must not make our own, most likely, erroneous findings and judgments on this situation. The matter is in the hands of the NYC Presbytery, as mandated by the Presbyterian Church (USA) Book of Order, for their investigation and ultimate decision. Our prayer needs to be that God's will be made known in this decision. Dr. Tewell is a magnificent preacher, a brilliant Scripture scholar, and a truly genuine human being. I respect and admire him to the highest degree. Yes, he made a mistake, albeit, a big mistake. I go back to my opening statement: The three F's – forgive, forgive, forgive – the very crux of Christianity. David L Carpenter What does it take to know what it means to be Reformed? October 20, 2005 Good Grief! Am I alone in wondering how many brethren out there really have any understanding of what it means to be Reformed? I am at a loss to understand how these folks have been able to take a term ("Reformed") that implies a conservative view of Scripture as the infallible an inerrant Word of God, a soteriology that pronounces us all Totally Depraved ("T" of TULIP) and without hope in this world except in the atoning work of Jesus, and that calls all of those redeemed by Christ to a life of holiness and selfless service to our Savior (including selflessness to our base desires), and that they have now taken that term and made it into a byword for a modern Samaritanism. (I mean this last, not as a reference to the "Good Samaritan," but to those syncretistic lovers of the pagan culture around them who threw out three-fourths of the Old Testament in an effort to remake Yahweh in their own image.) When will we have a renewed recognition among the broader Presbyterian world that to be Reformed is to be faithful to Scripture, to be united to the theological moorings of the Reformation (particularly as enunciated in the Westminster Standards and those godly folk who have followed in their footsteps), and to be focused on the proclamation of that Good News to the fallen world around us? Is anyone else sick of having theological Liberals steal our good words? Rev. Austin Olive, pastor Faith Presbyterian Church (EPC) Covington, La. Making theology fit the heresy October 20, 2005 Isn't it convenient that Jim Rigby can make up his theology up as he goes along practicing heresy? I guess the Pauline epistles (particularly Romans 1:26-30 and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10), Jude (vs.7) and the Old Testament (Leviticus 18:22 & Leviticus 20:13) don't count for much. Not to mention Jesus giving us the example that a marriage is to be one man and one woman in Matthew 19:4-9 (of course this does bring up the issue of divorce and remarriage, but that is another topic). But I suppose I am being too literal in taking these direct passages to say exactly what they mean. I wonder what John Knox would have to say about these passages and how to interpret them – if we want to honestly look at the Reformed & Presbyterian church "father?" Andrew McCaskill Aiken, S.C. Colson's call to arms is encouraging October 20, 2005 Colson's call to arms is certainly and encouragement to all who have been accused of being "angry" for stepping up to defend the Church against the seep and erosion of pop cultural norms. The way progressives talk, you would think the church was built not upon a solid rock, but shifting slab of shale that goes downhill with the flow. Two quotes for "moderates" to consider: First, from Sir Winston Churchill, speaking to the US Congress on Dec 26, 1941: "There is no working middle course in wartime." And second, from Dante Alighieri (1265-1321) : The hottest places in Hell are reserved for those who in time of great moral crises maintain their neutrality. What Colson says to be true for the nation is especially true for the PCUSA. Noel Anderson, executive pastor First Presbyterian Church Bakersfield, Calif. Couple want to help hurricane victims October 20, 2005 We are former deacons from the Paoli Presbyterian Church in Paoli, Pa. We have canceled our winter plans so that we may serve those who need us. My husband, Ronald, has been a volunteer at Habitat for eight years and can wire a whole house with the expertise he had learned over many volunteer years. He is also able to do most other Habitat jobs. He has gone on every disaster trip our church has made. I am a retired kindergarten teacher but have many other skills to give. I could, for example, babysit children of Hurricane victims as they go about getting their lives back to normal. We will be ready to come in January when you might be at the stage where some rebuilding has taken place. We could stay from two to three months as the need warrants. If we can help you or some area you know needs us, we would love to be there for you. Please know that we have felt called to do this and any information or encouragement you have for us will be greatly appreciated. Thank you and you are in our prayers. Nancy and Ronald Harper rfhnwh@aol.com Communication, trust problems at Hollywood October 20, 2005 It seems coming from an outside view of things that a lack of communication led to a lot of the problems at Hollywood First Presbyterian Church. I would also say a lack of trust, too. The administrative commission and session did not communicate to the congregation what was going on. This led to a lack of trust from the congregation as to what was happening. The actions of the AC in putting the pastors on leave minutes after they were appointed also fed into this mistrust. I would say that the one thing missing from Rick Penner's letter is any reference to prayer or asking for God's guidance during all of this. I wonder how many times (if any) this situation was brought up in prayer by those making the decisions. Or how many times they went back to the Word to find guidance. I think Jesus had a few things to say, like do not let the sun set if you are angry with someone or if you bring your offering and remember a disagreement with your brother, go first and make amends and then come back and offer your sacrifice. And finally, if you have a problem with someone go talk to them, if they do not listen then bring someone else to be a witness, etc... It is amazing to me how many times we as Christians refuse to consult the operating manual. Mark Karasek Still many questions unanswered at Hollywood October 20, 2005 The question was raised in a recent letter, "Where's the outrage?" regarding the calling by the session for the pastors, Alan Meenan and David Manock, to resign. The outrage is there, but the church continues to feel powerless. In many ways it's been worn down by five months of being informed of nothing about the charges being brought against our pastors. Regardless of the information provided on October 9, many feel the process by which the pastors were evicted from their positions was abhorrent. At the informational congregational meeting, many members asked questions, made statements, indicating that they still want to have the pastors back. For me, the information presented at the congregational meeting that most concerned me was the oversight of the finances, and the information that the finances have been askew for much longer than we realized. I also regret the loss of some outstanding pastors who cite the inability to work with Pastor Meenan as the reason for leaving Hollywood. True, this is not adequate leadership, but without knowing the other side, it's hard to evaluate fully. I still don't recognize what problem there is concerning Dr. Manock. Why is he being lumped into problems concerning Dr. Meenan? And now, the question arises, "do we finally accept what's happened and support our session?" I'm not sure of our other options. I guess we still have a pending vote to accept or deny the severance packages for these pastors; I think that's just a formality. Then, I think we vote on the acceptance of the dissolution of the pastors from our congregation. If the pastors have resigned, what good does that do? And the word is that the pastors have agreed to tentatively resign, pending, I assume the terms of the severance package. I think the fight is over. Katy Byrne, member First Presbyterian Church Hollywood Kirkpatrick has no solution for the turbulence that the PCUSA experiences October 18, 2005 Every time I've heard Cliff Kirkpatrick speak, he has never wavered from his "unity in diversity" mantra. It reminds me of the false prophets who soothed like soft music the people of God, crying, "Peace, peace..." when there was no peace. Cliff is a nice man, but he doesn't get it. From the bottom of his heart, he says, he is grateful to the assembly for re-electing him. It sounds rather like Cliff means, "Thanks for the job security until I retire..." He has proved again and again he has no solution for the turbulence that the PCUSA continues to experience. As for Cliff's "unity in diversity" password, here's an analogy that I find helpful: When America was welcoming the tired, poor and those yearning to be free, it was not diversity that made unity. It was the already-established "unity" of the Constitution and democratic principles that attracted such diverse numbers of the hurting and marginalized. Once they came, they were free to express their wonderful diversity, borne of ethnicities, languages, backgrounds, nationalities and experiences, because they held firmly to the principles that made expressing their diversity possible. It was unity from which diversity came, not the reverse. For believers in Christ, diversity is found in the unity of Biblical truth and godliness. If this is not already established, finding unity in diversity is a pipe dream. Cliff gets to stay. I wonder what the PCUSA will look like in four years. Rev. William J. Martin Northeast Presbyterian Church St. Petersburg, Fla. Jerusalem Council does not support the idea of 'autonomous' local churches October 18, 2005 I've been an ordained minister in the EPC for fifteen years. On the whole, it has been a positive association. Regarding the withdrawal of the 2,000-member church in Charlotte, N.C., from the EPC, one can say that this is a continuing problem for that denomination. Clearly evangelical, as its name implies, it nevertheless has an identity crisis. It struggles to answer the question, "Who are we?" By allowing ministers with non-Presbyterian views to continue in office, it has paved the way for entire congregations to be lost to independency. I hope that the EPC holds the line regarding covenantal baptism. I know that my child has received the sign of the covenant; I considered it to be important. As a teacher of church history, I am aware of the story of the 16th century Anabaptists. They rediscovered believers' baptism and later included immersion as a core belief. At the same time, however, they rediscovered some other things, such as a form of communism, pacifism, and in many cases, polygamy. That's the part of their heritage that our Baptist and Mennonite brothers choose to forget. I once witnessed a Baptist pastor in Africa baptize 33 converts in a village using a large steel tub. After the first few went through, the water looked mighty yucky. At that moment, being a Presbyterian and baptizing by sprinkling made a lot of sense. Connectedness is another important issue. When my late wife was battling cancer, she was prayed over by an entire presbytery, not just a single 'autonomous' church. Acts 15, the story of the Jerusalem Council, does not support the idea of 'autonomous' local churches. If it should happen that a large number of PCUSA churches should resolve the property issue and bolt, I think that the EPC would be the best place for them to land. Other conservative bodies such as the OPC and PCA can be a tad rigid, particularly over the issues of women and gifts of the Spirit. At the same time, I hope that EPC presbyteries will boldly and carefully examine officers so that the exodus led by non-Reformed leaders doesn't continue. Rev. Dr. Larry Brown African Bible College Update on Katrina relief efforts October 18, 2005 What an amazing five or six weeks these have been for us here in Brookhaven, Miss., and at Faith Presbyterian Church. I wanted to give you a final report on our evacuees and the situation here at Faith especially as you may have heard the news reports that there are still thousands remaining in temporary shelters and hundreds of thousands remaining in motels and hotels. Thanks be to the Lord and to you for your prayers, support and financial gifts -- because of those we have been able to relocate the last of our evacuees. And to the best of my knowledge none of them are in motels or hotels! Some have been able to return to their homes. Some have been able to relocate in other areas with family, friends or other housing. And some have relocated here in the Brookhaven area. We have been able to assist them with furniture, household goods, rent, transportation, utilities, car repairs, etc. What a blessing it has been to be able to provide for those who are in such need. An extra blessing for us has been to have some new faces here at the church! We have ongoing contact with a number of our evacuees both here in Brookhaven and afar. Wednesday, a young mother phoned in desperation because her car had broken down south of Brookhaven. She was traveling back from New Orleans to Memphis with her three little daughters and her two sisters. Somehow she had gotten our name from the Red Cross in Memphis. We were able to provide supper and a place to stay (opening up the church again after finding our local motels completely full). The next day we were able to get the car to the repair shop and rent a van for them to get back to Memphis, where they have relocated. She has already called us back this morning expressing her gratitude for our help. Although the "storm" has passed, the needs continue. Rosie has gotten calls for medical help. And just a little while ago two of our new friends were by the church. One we are helping as she wants to relocate here in Brookhaven and the other who needed to see one of our physicians. A few minutes ago I spoke with one of our evacuees who is back in New Orleans. He said that, under the circumstances, staying here (at Faith) was like being at a four-star hotel. And he said that the next time a hurricane is headed his way he is going to be headed to us. Life is slowly getting back to "normal" here, whatever "normal" is. However, there is still much to do in terms of cleaning up, resupplying, and the like. Please continue to be in prayer for those south of us on the Mississippi gulf coast and in south Louisiana who are facing months and months of hardship. And pray for us as we seek to assist others financially as well as in other ways. What a blessing you have been to us as you have stood with us during the events of recent weeks. Rob Oates Faith Presbyterian Church 400 Magee Drive Brookhaven, Mississippi 39601 PCUSA: Take notes from EPC about the maintenance of peace, purity and unity October 18, 2005 While it is likely an understatement to say the leadership of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church (EPC) was not pleased to see one of the flagship churches leave the denomination, it appears the process for a church to leave the EPC works with little rancor and hurt feelings. The Google search engine is one indicator of rancor and feelings. Using the keywords "forest hill", charlotte, epc, "church property" Google found no Web sites referring to the departure of Forest Hill Church of Charlotte from the EPC to an independent status. On the other hand, using the keywords "first presbyterian" torrance pcusa "church property" Google found 20 websites referring to the departure of First Presbyterian Church of Torrance from the PCUSA to the Korean Presbyterian Church in America (KPCA). And the news regarding First Torrance is not done as the court battle on the property has yet to begin. Perhaps our PCUSA national leadership might take notes from their EPC brethren regarding the maintenance of peace, purity and unity in a denomination. Larry Rued First Presbyterian Church Bradenton, Fla. Conflict at Hollywood will 'will reassert itself again' October 18, 2005 Significantly, the sense of the moment has changed at Hollywood Presbyterian. Emerging is the feeling that the church needs to look to how it can move ahead. By at least a three-quarters vote the session has requested the resignations of the pastors. What does this mean? The Layman has described events at the church as part of the "liberal vs. conservative" conflict; claiming the Administrative Commission (AC) – set up by the Presbytery of the Pacific to temporarily oversee the church – has been trying to extend the denomination's majority liberal views by weakening a local evangelical church through the device of removing its popular pastors. This portrayal misses the situation's complexity by a long shot. Swirling beneath the surface are layers of conflicts, such that the "liberal vs. conservative" explanation The Layman is talking about is only one of many. Observing the situation as one of the congregants, I have a different version of what's taking place. I'd like to explain it here…. First of all, in a narrow sense – the session's decision was triggered by this simple fact: The AC reported after investigation that there's been conflict and disorder within the church's staff (the last year or two) and it's documented in detail the ongoing neglect of the protection of the church's financial assets. The session is close enough to everything that's happened to verify this; some members said the "question of leadership" on these issues was the crucial factor in their decision. The majority of session-members insist the session's decisions are its own. So what's the wider basis for the conflict? The urban church lost membership during the last several decades as middle-class city congregants moved to the suburbs. The church has been trying to revitalize its ministry, and the resulting changes have lead to struggles between factions over how to carry this out. Within this context, however, deeper issues are at work: Cultural dynamics in the wider society are driving the turmoil. These are also affecting other evangelical churches. We can get a hint of this by reading reports from George Barna's research organization, The Barna Group (at www.barna.org); specifically, his latest book Revolution. According to his article at the Web site – "A Faith Revolution Is Redefining 'Church', According to New Study" – there's a growing dissatisfaction among congregants in evangelical churches that have traditional forms of practice. Barna brings attention to a rapidly growing group of more than 20 million adults throughout the nation that he calls "revolutionaries." Quoting Barna: "These are people who are less interested in attending church than in being the church. We found that there is a significant distinction in the minds of many people between the local church – with a small c – and the universal Church – with a capital C. Revolutionaries tend to be more focused on being the Church, capital C, whether they participate in a congregational church or not. We found that while some people leave the local church and fall away from God altogether, there is a much larger segment of Americans who are currently leaving churches precisely because they want more of God in their life but cannot get what they need from a local church. They have decided to get serious about their faith by piecing together a more robust faith experience." Barna projects that by 2025 the local church will lose roughly half of its current 'market share' and that alternative forms of faith experience and expression will pick up the slack." In my opinion, those that Barna describes as Christians attempting to find a "more robust faith experience" outside the traditional church – are responding to the same dynamics that are creating conflicts between church-goers. The following is my explanation. Since the 1960s, we've been living in a time when the theme "the personal is the political" (though not necessarily those exact words) has become more and more widespread. It finds expression in the desire for relations in society that go beyond politics, and in the church, this means relations between congregants, church leaders, teachers and pastors – that would contain more zeal, honesty, and emotional directness than that experienced to date. Advocates call for a personalizing of all relations in society, casual or formal, and resist the more traditional mode of categorizing whereby some relations are considered intimate and others are mediated by institutional roles. This contrast expresses itself two ways: (1) Regarding relations between individuals: a desire for a stronger, more personal way to relate to others in the church, including the leaders – what we might call the "therapeutic" approach to personal activity in the church community. (2) Regarding relations with the institution: a growing antagonism towards institutional authority and the traditional business mode of interaction with committees, structures, rules, and management. Here are some observations about how this pair of differences works out: (1) Between Individuals: "Therapeutic" vs. "Traditional" Defenders of the pastors at Hollywood Presbyterian are angry because they feel the pastors have been unfairly dealt with by the AC…and now, by the session. The therapeutic approach to solving social problems in organizational settings assumes that when a disagreement arises what are required are "forgiveness-experiences" on both sides; resolutions that purge old antagonisms and grievances and allow for healing and a new grace. According to this view, the fact that staff-conflict and financial problems have accumulated is not a reason to remove the pastors, but rather, a reason to "reconcile" the pastors all the more with the church community. The reality of the problem at the church is not contained in the record of what happened to the staff and the finances; rather; the reality is in the fact that emotional conflict exists in itself. There is no "good" or "poor" leadership, and there is no "management" or "mismanagement;" rather, there is "harmony" between the church and its leaders or there is "disharmony." Both parties are involved and both parties have contributed to the problem. Therefore, the "Christian" thing to do is to bring the pastors back to deal with the problems in the church. Furthermore, the pastors appear to have "been charged" with something and therefore they have the "right" to defend themselves. The main relation of pastors to the church is personal and emotional – not formal and professional. Accompanying this is the post-modern assumption that the record of the pastors' activities – the minutes of meetings, the financial records, the decisions and policies carried out over the last several years – do not have an objective existence, in themselves, but can mean different things to different people depending on how one interprets them. The personal intentions of the pastors and the loyalty of the congregants to the pastors are the factors to be judged – not their record of actions, which can be interpreted different ways. The session and/or the congregation should make the appraisal through personal face-to-face meetings with the pastors and not through isolated decisions carried out while separated from their leaders. In contrast to all this is the more traditional "business" model of relations that assumes the pastors are not only preachers and teachers but also executive managers of an institution. Their record of administration can be evaluated objectively. The congregation – through the session – assumes that the pastors' personalities and abilities are a "given" and that a decision must be made about whether the management team is something the church wants to keep in place or not. In this view, the pastors' "rights" are not an issue since it's the record that's being evaluated, not the persons. What's "fair" is not relevant as applied to the pastors; rather, what's "fair" for the session and the congregation is the key. It's assumed that a level of "maturity" regarding the discernment of individuals' roles – deciding when these roles are personal and when they're professional – should be a part of the responsibility of being an active congregant. The church institution is the material/social vehicle that enables the church community to function and carry on the work of the Christian community into the future. The question to be asked by this view is: are the pastors competent to handle church affairs so the church will continue to function? The contrast of these views can be seen in the argument that broke out at the October 9 congregational meeting over the meaning of the word "reconciliation." Those who supported the pastors thought "reconciliation" meant the return of the pastors to the church which would result in a mutual embracing and forgiveness by all within the church community. Those who opposed the pastors thought "reconciliation" meant a negotiated agreement in the long-term interests of both sides that involved the pastors voluntarily leaving. (2) Between Individuals and Institution: "Antagonism" vs. "Respect" There's a strong sense among supporters of the pastors that the Presbyterian system of presbytery-oversight of the local church is a problem; that churches should have more control of their own affairs. Along with this can be discerned a disdain in many quarters towards the Book of Order, towards denominational church policies as a whole, and towards the Presbyterian tradition of "rule by the presbytery-area's elders." The feeling among some in this camp is that though they are members of a Presbyterian Church they do not see themselves as "Presbyterians," only as "Christians" who happen to attend a Presbyterian church. Along with this there's apparently grown among many – including the pastors – a general dislike of policies and bureaucratic rules in general. There's a feeling that organizational structures and church traditions have been obstacles to growth and change, and that attention to rules and policies should be replaced by a more freely-reigning "vision" of "empowered" pastors who are supported by faith-based motivations; pastors as "motivators" with a mission, who shouldn't be unnecessarily constrained by the contingencies of materialism and normal financial concerns. "If we only have faith" – it's asserted – we can grow and create new programs despite the limitations of prosaic fund-raising tasks. Contrast this with the traditional view towards church authority: of the need for large organizations to function through the application of policies and professionalism. Most importantly, according to this view, it's thought that an organization that wishes to continue into the future with some semblance of a tradition or an ongoing shared community experience must consider how it can build organizational structures that will create strategies and designs and carry out long-range plans. So the ability to prepare for the future depends on a sense of deference and loyalty to authority by individuals in the organization. Without institutional control and reliability, a large organization such as a church will have to experience dramatic changes and renewals every few years (or even months) and face the threat of possible collapse every time the wind shifts. Even if one regards the session's decision as sound – and I think an argument from financial necessity, if nothing else, could be made in its favor – the problem of relating to a traditional church structure is still a perplexing one. Little was known among the congregants about the troubles in church management before the issue came to our attention last spring – even though the conflict had gone on "behind closed doors" long before that. And ever since then the church and AC authorities have communicated very little with the membership (until this last meeting on Oct 9). Only a few official letters were released. In the public meetings where questions were allowed it seemed the AC and session members often tended to avoid answering questions directly or offering much detail. (In this last congregational meeting of 10/9/05 the answerers began to demonstrate candor.) During this past year those who were opposed to the pastors and were involved at a "high" level – kept their distance from the congregation. But the side supporting the pastors was loud and visible. Several Web sites kept everyone aware of every argument in the pastors' favor. It's a mystery how the traditional church institution can hope to keep afloat – in this new world of instant communications via the Internet and in this new universe of the "therapeutic" sensibility – if it continues to behave in such a stodgy and distanced manner. It seemed to the average congregants that the "insiders" who supported the AC and opposed the pastors were unseen entities as opposed to real church members; many congregants kept asking: "Who are these people?" The congregation was always sighting "the authorities" in the AC and session off at a distance on the stage, or imagining them behind a screen somewhere issuing cryptic letters from time to time with little real contact with "us." Some said: "Why don't those making a case against the pastors – if it is really a good case – come up close and sit and talk to us in detail about their views? Where is their touch of common-sense and concrete reality?" This "distancing" effect ironically encouraged congregants to be victims of some of those who supported the pastors by inflaming people with wild conspiracy-theories about how the church was being "hijacked," "controlled" by unseen "powers," or being "taken over by homosexuals." It was widespread that either the presbytery was manipulating the situation behind the scenes – or "demonic" forces were at work. The lesson is: when little real information is available in the form of personal contact and warm relations then the imagination fills the void with our worst fears. On the other hand, the pastors' supporters may have been overly fanatical in their "loyalty." While passion for the pastors enriched the emotional ties of people to the church, it's also raised the question of whether Hollywood Presbyterian had allowed a cult-like atmosphere to grow at the church. Those on staff or in other leadership positions who disagreed with the pastors reported feeling intimidated. Many leaders left the church the last few years because of what they said was the negative management style of the pastors: manipulative, arrogant and vindictive. When the entire issue first became public at the first few congregational meetings, those who questioned the pastors' management abilities were verbally attacked and threatened. Many people were afraid to speak. This goes a long way towards explaining why those questioning the pastors' management ability had to protect themselves by not coming forward in "public"; why the "distancing" effect mentioned above was being constructed. The very attempts to defend themselves – by those who wanted to preserve the church's financial and staff stability and therefore oppose the pastors – led others to "see" their behavior as that of "manipulation" and "deceit." Since only a relatively small number of people were in a position to relate to the pastors as professionals, few people were aware of these problems before the crisis erupted. Meanwhile, the pastors projected a warm and embracing view towards the congregation as a whole so that most of the members responded with love and enthusiasm. In the view of the majority of the congregation, the pastors are humble, spiritual and inspiring men of God – and that's all that matters. An objective analysis by the majority of the congregants of the many severe mismanagement problems was almost impossible. The haze of emotion – hysteria, really – prevented open dialogue between parties. No major efforts to organize discussion groups between members – to have people on opposite sides face each other and talk – were attempted (although some small trials of this were made; nevertheless, most of the congregation was not included). People did not have the chance to get detailed information about the many aspects of the situation – to have their questions answered – except in a few large public meetings. And those meetings tended to be stages for confrontation rather than dialogue. Finally, in this church, the pastors were so loved – and the pastors' control over so many aspects of the organization were so centralized in their hands during their time in office – that when they were separated from the church by the AC (trying to remove the "cult-like" atmosphere from the situation so people could see and speak freely), the effect was as if the "head" was removed from the "body." There was no clear authority or point of common reference anymore. Chaos broke out. It took months to restore order. In conclusion: the pastors have been supported by that portion of the church that was yearning for new ways of relating to each other and new ways of relating to the church organization: primarily through direct, emotional, "spirit-filled" means that I've identified as the "therapeutic" style. But those opposed to the pastors supported the traditional church governance as the best vehicle for carrying on the work of the church. One could say: the "therapeutic" view emphasized immediacy of experience in the "here and now," whereas the traditional view gave up some level of "presence" for the sake of a more enduring church community in the future. But because the larger conflict is really one between these various cultural perspectives – and since they come from the wider society and affect all evangelical churches – it's almost certain the conflict will reassert itself again. Rick Penner, member First Presbyterian Church of Hollywood How much is this 'Anti-Israel' campaign costing the PCUSA? October 14, 2005 The Reuters report " PCUSA only denomination calling for divestment of stock in companies doing business with Israel" failed to mention that even though the PCUSA seems to be going it alone in their economic war against Israel, that does not seem to be stopping PCUSA leadership from going full steam ahead. The McCormick Theological Seminary co-hosted Naim Ateek and his Sabeel road show in Chicago last week. Read more here and here. The Presbytery of East Iowa is the treasurer for the Sabeel event at Cedar Rapids on Oct 14-15. Read more here. Clifton Kirkpatrick is on the featured speaker list for the Sabeel Conference in Toronto October 26-29. Read more here. The churches who are trying to advance overtures through their respective presbyteries to rescind the Israel divestment are meeting stiff resistance. Read more here. At some point the rank and file are going to start asking how much is this "Anti-Israel" campaign costing. How many staff is involved in arranging pro-Palestinian speaking tours to PCUSA churches and other venues? How many missionaries are involved in promoting a pro-Palestinian position? For how long have those missionaries been engaged in that activity? How many Mid East fact-finding trips have been undertaken by the PCUSA leadership in the past five years? On any of these Mid East fact-finding trips did our PCUSA leaders ever meet with Israeli governmental officials? How much has been spent printing and mailing materials promoting divestment to the 11,000 churches? How much time has Louisville staff spent away from their regular jobs to make presentations in support of divestment at presbyteries, churches and other venues like moderator conferences? How much was spent for staff travel expenses to make these presentations? Church members start asking your session these questions. Church sessions start asking your presbytery these questions. Presbytery commissioners start asking the GA these questions. Larry Rued First Presbyterian Church Bradenton, Fla. More than 50 members transferred to Smart's church October 14, 2005 The Layman is good on half truths and innuendo, but I share with Mr. Adams one fact. I personally have seen more than 50 letters signed by Mr. Smart requesting transfers for members from Second Presbyterian Church to St Andrews Community. Peter Nord Executive presbyter Presbytery of Baltimore The question is 'What does the truth of the Bible glean from me?' October 14, 2005 The final report of the Theological Task Force on Peace, Unity and Purity of the Church (TTF) adopts the theological nomenclature of the Christian tradition, including an affirmation that, "The Scriptures, inspired and illumined by the Holy Spirit, form our identity and teach us who we are, whom we worship, and how we exist in the world as the body of believers" (lines 103-104, p. 4 - line and page numbers refer to the published report of 1386 lines in 45 pages). Yet, our formation by God's written Word is, according to the TTF report, to be informed by our own "interpretation" of the "divine Word mediated and spoken through inspired human words" (lines 159-160, 165, p. 6). The TTF report asserts that the Bible remains "our rule of faith and life ... our reliable guide in matters pertaining to salvation, our light in a world of moral obscurity, our measure of what is theologically truthful and spiritually life giving." It then goes on to claim that "these words also reflect the social, cultural and intellectual conditions of their times" (lines 160-165, p. 6). This necessitates the application to the text of historical and literary critique, along with our own intelligence, knowledge and understanding. Our task is to distill from this vast reservoir of ancient scratchings that which we hold true for ourselves. This is the exact antithesis of the belief and confession that, "the canonical Scriptures of the holy prophets and apostles of both Testaments [is] the true Word of God," and "have sufficient authority and truth of themselves, not of [human beings]" articulated in the Second Helvetic Confession (BOC 5.0001) and quoted by the TTF report (lines 99-101, p.4). Our Reformed tradition begins with the affirmation that God's written Word is truth (period). Whatever tools, understanding, knowledge and intelligence the reader/interpreter brings to the text, are brought to an encounter with the truth. The question is not, "What truth can I glean from the Bible?" Instead, the question is, "What does the truth of the Bible glean from me?" The Word of truth, the Sword of the Spirit, cuts and prunes and shapes, slices and dices and carves a new creature fit for God's kingdom from every soul that dares brave the battle of coming to grips with the Bible. The written, old, old story of God's love for us each and all in Christ Jesus is infused with power, through the working of the Holy Spirit, to strip away every pretense of our small humanity and to reclothe us in all Godlikeness. A Christian faith grounded in the Bible is apprehended by the truth that the one God revealed in the written Word calls all who trust in him to imagine themselves remade in the very image of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit – exercising all purity of conduct, holiness of love, compassion of mercy, and forgiveness of grace; to invest the entirety of their being in living into this reality; and to invite all people to join them on the march to step into their complete character as children of God, heirs of our Lord's everlasting kingdom. A faith that is not rooted in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament (whether it, like the final report of the TTF, adopts the name and nomenclature of Christianity or not) calls adherents to live the reality of the present moment to the truest and best of their most humane abilities – employing all human kindness, gentleness, love and peace; to welcome all who long to embrace such qualities to unite in the quest toward self-actualization; and to invite all humanity to cooperate in the task of re-imagining God (if God is to be imagined at all) as the co-creator of the always enduring, fully revealed self. Such a faith is foreign to the gospel of Jesus Christ, alien to the God of the Bible, and – though it may be laced with truisms Scriptural and otherwise – completely devoid of the truth. Jim Henkel, NWI endorsing church pastor North Benton Presbyterian Church North Benton, OH Eastminster Presbytery The apparent and imminent demise of the WARC – good riddance October 14, 2005 I read with great interest – and no small amount of satisfaction – the October 11 article on The Layman Online in which Dr. Kirkpatrick laments the apparent and imminent demise of the WARC. Having read the Marxist Accra Confession adopted by WARC last year, my response is "good riddance." When can we also get rid of the National Council of Churches? Jim Kaucher, elder Northminster Presbyterian Church Tucson, Ariz. PUP folks, like puppies, chased their tails seeking both peace and purity October 14, 2005 About 25 years ago, I sat in an officer training event in the San Gabriel Presbytery, listening to Dr. Howard Rice then of San Francisco Seminary. Dr. Rice's subject that day was the ordination questions and their detailed meaning. Regarding "Do you promise to study the peace, unity and purity of Christ's church?" he made a significant and, I believe, useful observation. An ordinand's duty is to know what will promote peace, what will promote unity, and what will promote purity. What will promote peace and unity is unlikely to promote purity, and vice versa. Therefore the ordinand must select between the choices, and come down where the spirit and Scripture guide him. Would that so clear an instruction had been given either the GA or the PUP task force. The PUP folks, like puppies, chased their tails seeking both peace and purity. The result was ordained by the question and the task force's uncritical acceptance of it. Wendell L. Webster Glendale Presbyterian Church Glendale, Calif. Coalition's opposition to PUP report commended October 11, 2005 As I expected, I am pleased the Presbyterian Coalition is in opposition to the PUP Task Force Report. I thought the closing statement is important for church members to know. "Because we cannot commend the whole Report to the church, our renewal organizations will offer resources to assist the church in discerning a better way to seek its peace, unity, and purity." Not only is the Presbyterian Coalition opposing the report, they are also going to help the churches with a better way to peace, unity, and purity. For too long the Coalition has only been known as the organization opposing homosexual ordination. The Coalition asked: "Want to sign on? Please email your name, affiliation, and contact information to info@presbycoalition.org" I have. Larry Rued First Presbyterian Church Bradenton, Fla. A plan of action is missing from renewal statement on PUP report October 11, 2005 I fully agree with the statement from the nine renewal organizations. What's missing is a plan of action to prevent the acceptance of this report next year in Birmingham. The solution, I believe, is for sessions across our denomination to pass motions to discontinue the per-capita payment to presbyteries if the report is accepted, and for the sessions to notify their presbyteries of their planned action. Ed Cross St. Mark Presbyterian Church Boerne, Texas Hollywood meeting: What does 'reconciliation' mean? October 11, 2005 As a member of the Presbytery of the Pacific, I attended the Oct. 9 information meeting at Hollywood Presbyterian Church regarding the Administrative Commission's report and the session's request for the pastors' resignations. Several things stood out. Regarding the information gathering process, AC member Earl Ellis explained, "E-mails were put together from the church archives," and he presented content from an e-mail sent to Pastor Meenan. A church member later asked if the pastors had consented to have their private e-mails read. AC member Tony de la Rosa replied: "California Corporations Code Section 92-10 allows directors of any nonprofit corporation access to any document of that corporation. Therefore I often advise any persons engaged in confidential communication not to use the church or institutional communications...." Most church members believe that communication with a pastor is privileged information. Isn't it a violation of the congregation's trust to scour hard drives and discuss private communications at a congregational meeting? Throughout the afternoon much of the congregation's concern focused on reconciliation. When repeatedly asked if the AC attempted a reconciliation between the pastors and the aggrieved parties, De la Rosa replied: "Let's face it. The real issue is the meaning of the term 'reconciliation.' Reconciliation implies in some minds a certain outcome. Your session has achieved a reconciliation. They achieved balancing the interests of this church with the interests of your pastoral leaders. That in our minds and in this session's opinion is reconciliation.... They have become reconciled among themselves and will attempt to spread that spirit to you all. But reconciliation does not imply any particular outcome...." Finally session member Keri Tombazian answered: "The real question is 'Has the session sat down and talked to David and Allan?' No, we have not." Another recurring question involved the Administrative Commission's role, which it defined as to "empower the session." But when asked "Did the session have the authority to return the pastor's from administrative leave?" De la Rosa gave an unequivocal "no." Everyone at Hollywood Presbyterian is worn down – the session, the congregation and the pastors. Nevertheless, many who spoke expressed sadness that reconciliation was not attempted. As one member put it, "All of us will go forward and we do not know to this day whether or not we could have solved our problems. I think we could have resolved this in a way that builds faith in our process." Paul Strand Member at Large Presbytery of the Pacific The Hollywood Presbyterian improv October 11, 2005 The most recent act of the Administrative Commission at Hollywood Presbyterian Church was played on the stage of Sunday's congregational meeting. It was a tragic-comedy whose purpose was to convince a disobedient congregation that the pastors really deserved to be booed off the state. Although no vote was planned, it was the hope of the AC that the congregation would cooperate and second the session's recent browbeaten acquiescense that the pastors ought not return. With stern face, grave manner and a theatrical voice that rose and fell with each dire pronouncement, the Rev. Dr. Judith Cuthbertson worked through a bill of particulars meant to make people ooh and aah and clutch one another in spent disability. But a funny thing happened on the way to this forum where the truth kept intruding like an obnoxious child. Reconciliation became an entity defined so oddly that people giggled. Stealing e-mails from the pastor's in-box became right because it was legal. Reneging on an agreement that would have dropped frivolous judicial charges became a virtue. And placing the session under unrelenting duress was celebrated as "empowerment." In uneven performances – sometimes gifted, sometimes transparent, Catherine Hughes, Tony De la Rosa, Earl Sharon Brownings and the Rev. Cuthbertson bobbed and weaved but could not dodge the rotten produce from the masses. Quite frankly, I think they got stuck with bad material. Dr. Frankie Cotton, member Hollywood Presbyterian Church Why isn't there more outrage at Hollywood? October 11, 2005 It is a terrible thing that has happened to Hollywood Presbyterian Church. I am surprised that there is not more outrage. The message to Presbyterian pastors in liberal-leaning presbyteries is "watch your back, keep all of your members happy and keep all of the elders on your side". Imagine if Martin Luther, John Calvin and John Knox had to operate in such an environment. Certainly, they did before the Reformation, and that motivated their actions. How can evangelism, spiritual growth and serious Bible study take place in such a hostile environment? The Lord help us. John Almquist In light of Scripture, Layman shows remarkable restraint October 11, 2005 A rhetorical question for Pauline Levin: precisely what part of Scripture does support acceptance of our neighbor's lifestyles which both Old and New Testament Scripture consistently call sinful? What scripture supports worshiping others gods? What scripture supports calling right wrong and wrong right? She need not answer, for the answer is clearly; there are none. The Layman is restrained and compassionate in its treatment of disobedience to God, wishing and praying that mankind would repent. Does she want examples of name-calling? Try John the Baptist: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?" John said this to crowds coming to be baptized by him! (Luke 3:7) Or try Peter on the Day of Pentecost: "This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross." (Acts 2:23) About 3000 were added to the church that day! Or try Stephen appearing before the Sanhedrin: "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him – you who have received the law that was put into effect through angels but have not obeyed it." (Acts 7:51-53) They stoned him. And Pauline Levin objects to the layman using labels such as liberal? The Layman shows remarkable restraint! James H. Logan McHenry, Md. Historical Foundation at Montreat is being sold down the river October 6, 2005 The Historical Foundation of the Presbyterian and Reformed Churches in Montreat (in recent years renamed the Presbyterian Historical Society Montreat Office) is being sold down the river. To make a long story short, the building will be closed and the holdings are scheduled to be dispersed, possibly as early as the end of October, with large amounts going to the Presbyterian Historical Society in Philadelphia. The Philadelphia staff are on record as saying that they want to keep only materials documenting church courts and agencies, so the collections of individuals or families will probably be sold – at least the obviously "valuable" ones. The others? Why? Because the General Assembly's stated clerk and the staff in Philadelphia are not so much interested in making Presbyterian historical materials available to the public as they are in exercising power. The stated reason for the move is economic: It would be cheaper to run one institution than two. But the stated clerk's office has consistently blocked efforts to raise funds for the Historical Foundation and even confiscated funds raised for that purpose. In April of 2004, there was a public meeting in Upper Anderson Auditorium in Montreat, during which a task force considering this matter heard public testimony about the Montreat facility from the more than 200 people present, along with letters from Presbyterians from all over the world. The people in that room came from a wide range of backgrounds – from very conservative to very liberal, serious scholars and ordinary people. But with almost one voice, they strongly urged the task force not to move the materials out of Montreat. Only one person spoke against keeping the materials in Montreat: the son of a former staff member at Philadelphia. A similar meeting in Philadelphia, supposedly to consider the future of the institution there, drew only ten people, and they all had to be specifically told to come. The Historical Foundation once counted more than 10,000 visitors in a year – Philadelphia can't come even close to that. Reflect a little on what we will be losing. The Historical Foundation houses one of the most fabulous collections of archival, library and museum materials about Presbyterian and Reformed Christians anywhere in the world. Unlike Philadelphia, whose collection is limited to American Presbyterian history, the Historical Foundation's collections include material from Presbyterian and Reformed denominations worldwide, and not just those brought into existence as a result of Southern Presbyterian mission efforts. Treasures abound there, from the leather-bound, vellum copy of the Corpus Reformatorum printed at the time of the Reformation, to current periodicals, and everything in between! The collection of Presbyterian and Reformed session records and of presbytery and General Assembly minutes goes all the way back to pre-Revolutionary times in the American colonies. Our Historical Foundation at Montreat houses the world's largest collection of Presbyterian and Reformed periodicals. The list of manuscript holdings is absolutely stunning. In addition, the collections at Montreat include something especially priceless, but which Philadelphia doesn't think much of, namely the Local Church History collection. Since the 1920s, plain ordinary Southern Presbyterians have been writing yearly histories of their local churches and filing the original copies at Montreat. In the summer, hundreds of people would come in to read about their own churches, and about those of friends and relatives. Ministers often used the collection to check out churches they were being called to move to. The literary quality of these histories might vary, but just think what this represents: a grassroots glimpse into the everyday life of hundreds of local churches over a period of almost a hundred years. What went on in local churches on a weekly basis during World War II? What effect did the charismatic movement have on congregations in the 1970s? How did Southern Presbyterian congregations respond to the Civil Rights movement of the 1960s? What would any scholar give for a similar collection of histories of local churches in Europe during the Reformation! Philadelphia is not likely to continue this valuable program. They may even just toss out the whole thing. What else will they discard? At the public meeting in Montreat last year, many practical reasons for leaving the material here were mentioned, including ease of access at the major Presbyterian conference center (Montreat is within a day's driving distance of one third of the population of the United States), and the availability of many missionaries nearby to help translate materials that are in foreign languages. Within fifteen minutes' walk of the Historical Foundation, you will find people who are delighted to help you by translating Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Portuguese, French, Tschiluba, German, Latin, Greek, Bakuba, Hebrew, Russian and Spanish. And those are only the first available languages that come to mind. Not bad for a small town; and a lot easier to locate than in a vast scattered metropolitan area. If taken to Philadelphia, the collections would be essentially out of reach for most of the people who have been using them. The majority of people making use of the Historical Foundation's materials are ordinary Presbyterians, perhaps in Montreat for a conference or family reunion, who want to see something about their congregation or their family. Essentially, they would never see those materials again. Scholars of Southern history (mostly located at colleges and universities in the South) will be in a real fix. Graduate students on a meager budget can seldom afford a trip to Philadelphia for even a short stay, let alone at metropolitan motels long enough to study primary source material in depth. But with the collections dispersed to the four winds, even if they could make it to Philadelphia, the material they'd have available to them would be only a fraction of what is now located in Montreat. The remainder will have been sold or given away, never again available in one convenient location. Anybody who thinks the study of Presbyterians in the South isn't very important, needs to think again: five of the six most recent former governors of the state of North Carolina are Presbyterian elders. There has been some rumor that the materials would be available on-line. Not a chance. A denomination with seriously dwindling revenues could not possibly undertake such an expensive endeavor; it would mean scanning millions of pages, and that will not happen. Speaking of seriously dwindling revenues, there is also concern that in a few years, there won't even be enough money for the stated clerk's office to keep Philadelphia itself open. The facility at Philadelphia is more expensive to run than Montreat; the Philadelphia staff have to receive a cost of living adjustment because it is a much more expensive setting than Montreat. Moving the material from Montreat to Philadelphia is not the most economical thing to do. And it also doesn't make sense to make such a drastic move with seriously divisive issues already impending at the 2006 General Assembly. There is a committee, the Friends of the Historical Foundation at Montreat, which is working very hard at presenting an alternative to this disaster. Anyone interested in what they're doing should write to PO Box 207, Montreat, NC 28757. And pray. Lannae Graham Montreat, N.C. Thankfully average Americans pay no attention to the rants of PCUSA October 6, 2005 Re: Mainline-backed group affirms abortion as 'moral religious choice' This article was astounding to me on so many levels. First, let me say that I love this country; I moved here five years ago from Canada, and there is not enough money in the world to pay me to move back. But I am always amazed at America's sick obsession with abortion and of a woman's right to commit murder in the womb. I can see how this pathetic notion can exist in the general population: The left has successfully framed the debate as a "choice" issue, however, that kind of thinking has no place in the church! It is sad how these "church leaders" think they can discuss something that the Word has already spoken to. Secondly, I wonder if these people are even Christians in the first place? I understand God is the final judge of person's heart, but surely these "blind guides" will have hell to pay when they stand before the Almighty! Imagine, leading the flock astray while you claim to speak God's truth! How serious an offense is that against his Word. To speak as they do is to disregard the Divine Character and to suggest God condones wickedness and sin. This kind of attitude is what wearies God (Malachi 2); to impune his perfect and holy Character is arrogance of the highest calibre. And finally, what angers me the most is the fact that these people, with their willing accomplices in media, claim to speak for me! I pastor a Presbyterian church, but they most certainly do not speak for me, or the majority of my congregation. I have had it up to here with the arrogance of the PCUSA. When will they speak the truth – God's truth? They spend millions debating issues that the Word put to rest when it was written. They sit in their offices, oblivious to the fact the their ship is sinking fast. They elect left-wing liberals to give guidance; no wonder we constantly run ashore. They play at church while their neighbors are going to hell. Thank God the rank and file members of PCUSA churches still believe in the Bible; still read it and seek to put into practice its truths, despite their pathetic leadership. And believe it or not, thank God the average American pays no attention to the rants of a denomination that is so out of step with God and mainstream thought. No wonder so many of our churches are empty. They don't even know we exist. Dr. Mike Porter, pastor Norton Presbyterian Church, at least for the moment! Stop this Mickey Mouse action and bring church back to its service to the Lord October 6, 2005 Another sad story in the life of the PCUSA. Hollywood Presbyterian, one of our truly great and faithful churches is being destroyed for reasons that have not been properly explained. A small minority, working with the Presbytery of the Pacific, is bringing a strong church to its knees. Misguided people are at work here. Only with the help of a presbytery that flaunts God's mission could this happen. Does the presbytery covet the assets or do they object to an evangelical outreach? This church has a history of great pastors and faithful members in a land of make-believe. It has trained many outstanding pastors. It is interesting that the Louisville gang has stood aside obviously approving this carnage. We should all pray that God will stop this Mickey Mouse action and bring Hollywood Pres. back to its once great service to our Lord. Also, pray for those souls responsible for this travesty, that God will have mercy on them. Bill Arthur Greenville, S.C. Session asked pastors for resignations October 6, 2005 "'Another great church has fallen,' said one elder, who asked not to be quoted by name because of his concern that the issue would become even more divisive." Isn't that statement a bit contradictory or at least confusing? Would quoting the elder by name have been divisive, or are the comments that the elder made divisive and therefore the elder is afraid of being named? Does the elder not want to be perceived as divisive, while still acting that way? Because the elder did actually make the comments to your reporter, so the additional divisiveness has been perpetrated, by him. How is he demonstrating his stated concern for the church? Your article also includes some purported details about the proceedings of the session meeting on September 29. We understood that session meeting was an executive one – all matters confidential unless session agreed to make certain information public. Which elder on session or participant in the meeting chose to break that confidentiality and share the information in your story with the reporter? Can (should?) the source be named? Finally, how do you get this: "the session called for a congregational vote to ask the ministers to tender their resignations," from this: "We [session] therefore asked for their resignations. A congregational meeting is set for October 9th for the purpose of presenting the AC results and to take Q & A."? Both statements are printed mere lines away from each other in your story and are in fact contradictory. The session has not called for a congregational vote to ask the ministers to tender their resignations. Session asked them to. The meeting on the 9th is, as you state, to present information and answer questions. Eleanor Hoppe, member First Presbyterian Church of Hollywood Radical right and militant left: Both sides feign compassion, yet preach outrage October 6, 2005 It saddens me as I continue to hear the beating of war drums in the PCUSA as G.A. '06 approaches. It seems that the fringe elements in our denomination continue to shape the debate, driving thousands of Presbyterians away each year. Let me say that if I am left with a choice between the future created by the radical right or that of the militant left, I will join the throngs of rats fleeing the ship. Both sides feign compassion, yet preach hatred and outrage. Both sides grasp with narrow minds to context-ridden Scriptures and bankrupt theologies. The right claims orthodoxy, yet pushes fundamentalism. The left claims the Reformation, yet flaunts immorality and decadence. And what of those in the middle, whose brains have been not been affected by the theological jingoism of the warhawks? I think Christ is truly with those who would choose purple instead of red or blue. Nick Lincoln Richmond, Va. Cease name-calling and using impersonal words like 'liberal' October 6, 2005 I very much resent your extremism and do not believe you are sincere or Christian when you say you love everyone and respect others and welcome everyone in your church except that gays cannot serve the Lord in your church. They can only listen to your sermons. I feel sorry for your inability to really accept your "neighbors" and that you only look in the Bible at the parts that support your narrow view, ignoring the parts that do not. Also, you should cease name-calling and impersonal words like "liberal." What is the purpose of that? It strengthens prejudice and stereotyping and should be beneath you. Pauline Levin Nyack, N.Y. Analysis was 'quite fine' October 6, 2005 Re: Analysis of the PUP Task Force's historical problem I thought it was quite fine! Walter Funk Charleston, W.Va. Position that woman should not be ordained is held by most Reformed churches October 6, 2005 Generally I find myself in agreement with most Layman articles; however I would like to respond to this particular article about Ms. Miers when you state, "But in her local church – Valley View Christian Church in a Dallas suburb – Miers could not qualify to be elected as an officer. The evangelical Protestant church, an independent offshoot of the Church of Christ, does not allow women to serve as ministers, deacons or elders." Most Christian churches that hold firmly to the historic orthodox Christian faith reject the ordination of woman pastors and elders; personally, I find the Scriptures to be very clear on this matter. The tone of this article makes it sound like her church is a pariah. The position that woman should not be ordained is theological, and held to by most Reformed churches worldwide – at least those seeking to stay faithful to the Scriptures. Andrew McCaskill Hudson River convinced there's no problem ordaining openly gay man October 3, 2005 I was rather overwhelmed at the full-court press that everyone in a position of leadership in [Hudson River] Presbytery put on those of us who spoke against the ordination. Though respectful for the most part, the pressure was amazing. Only four of us spoke against, only nine voted no, and 88 yes. From the stated clerk, to the moderator, to the EP, when questioned as to the constitutionality of approving the ordination, each was genuinely convinced that there was no problem. What strikes me as amazingly hypocritical in Hudson River Presbytery is how the majority selectively enforces the constitution. When the Circleville church asked to leave the denomination as a "matter of conscience" (the argument the majority uses here to defy the constitution on gay ordination), Circleville was harshly disciplined and had to pay $112,500 ransom to leave. When our session voted eight years ago to withhold per capita as "a matter of conscience" regarding our presbytery's stance on the Re-imagining God conference, we since have been excluded from any position of leadership in the presbytery. As theological conservatives, Hudson River Presbytery violates the constitution and discriminates against us by silencing our voices and refusing to let us serve in positions of power and leadership in the presbytery. How's that for a liberal, open-minded, just and fair presbytery! Dr. Allen V. Kemp Suffern Presbyterian Church Suffern, N.Y. Recent secular court rulings seem to take the sting out of Moe's threat October 3, 2005 Having read Ken Moe's ultimatum confirms, again, a number of things. Firstly, we are "unequally yoked," and don't worship the same God. I am a little familiar with Mr. Moe's fiefdom. In the Gospel of Luke, chapter 12, Jesus is – I believe – both sad and angry at those who don't "see" what is really happening. Some external things are observed, but, the heart of the matter is lost on those who do not know, believe, nor experience the power of the blood of the Lamb to transform lives. Mr. Moe's resoluteness to put a shekel price on those who desire to uphold both the constitution, and the Word of God sounds rather hollow. Firstly, it is the Lord who numbers our days. Secondly, increasingly, rulings in our secular courts would appear to take the sting out of his threats. Needless to say, the greatest tragedy, and reminder is, that we fight not flesh and blood, but principalities and powers. Moe et al, would appear to have capitulated to the "Sarx." No wonder then that anything goes. The words of Paul seem very fitting, "... who has bewitched you? Pastor Jerry Voss Millbrook Presbyterian Church Fresno, Calif. Pro-choice positions disheartening October 3, 2005 When I read about the RCRC gathering with Ms. Giddings Ivory energetically supporting pro-choice decisions, I was once again disheartened by the shape and direction our denomination has taken. As a mother of four, I know what it is to have life grow inside you. It's exciting, amazing, miraculous and scary. And I always remembered it was a life inside me, someone, some person, some soul. To advocate abortion (even though the Bible doesn't specifically address the issue – the "word" isn't in Scripture), is to go against God's love and care of humankind. He created us, in his image, we are his. How sad that Ms. Giddings Ivory's understanding of the Gospel does not embrace this. How sad that she is expounding such a limited understanding of God's love. She should not have such a voice within the denomination. And our denomination should not be supporting such groups as RCRC. The Pro-Choice (anti-life) movement has done a disservice for women. They have not promoted women's rights. They have limited their understanding of the awesome blessings we have. Barbara Moody Sparta, Ill. Praise for Becker's letter October 3, 2005 Re: 'I am a heterosexist and my other habits are good' Brilliantly stated! Bravo! Praise the Lord! Amen! Douglas R. Anderson Southlake, Texas Those grabbing property from congregations should pay attention to Scripture October 3, 2005 Cindy Coleman hit the nail on the head with her letter of September 28. It was a great example of judgment – and how to avoid God's wrath, if the wise will take heed. Many will say, "That's Old Testament," so let me offer a warning from the NT. "Whoever shall cause one of these little ones which believe in me to stumble, it would be better for him to hang a millstone around his neck, and be drowned in the sea." Matthew 18:6. To those who would like to grab property from faithful, hard-working congregations; and to those who would scoff at their love and loyalty to Christ and the Word of God: Pay attention! This means your judgment will be such that you'll wish you had drowned in the depths of the sea! Get it? Kay Brooks Irving, Texas Don't use terminology to the liberal left October 3, 2005 Please! Do not follow the liberal media in referring to homosexuals as "gay." The correct terminology is "homosexual." You are under no compulsion (except in direct quotes so identified) to use the terminology of the liberal left. I urge you to cease and desist. We expect and deserve more objectivity from such a fine Christian organization as the PLC. Thank you very much for your objective consideration. Jasper McClellan

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