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2006 letters, page 2 Archives of letters to the editor  |
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releasing poll is just more manipulation, deception and rewriting of the
truth August 23, 2006 Why does this article not surprise me? Just more manipulation, deception and rewriting of the truth from those whom lack understanding of leadership and why lightning strikes on occasion. Dawson Watkins PCUSA is defeating itself, guaranteeing no sane person would ever join August 23, 2006 In pursuing the PCUSA Web site, I read an interesting article which struck me with bemusement. If I read this article right, the goal is to frighten Christians into submission by reports from the PCUSA on the atrocities they have committed against Christ and his church in California. The message is that if Christians remain loyal to Christ, this is what they plan to do to them! (Be afraid! Be very afraid!) Yeah; blow it out your ear, Louisville. When faithful disciples read stuff like that, all that happens is that their hearts are filled with new energies to see the dragon brought down. Spitting on Jesus' family like that is something we take kind of personal. And besides, if Christ tarries, the coming history of the PCUSA has already been written for us in the past. All one has to do is look at the Universalist Unitarian sect to see what the PCUSA will be in 50 years. The PCUSA is defeating itself, guaranteeing no sane person would ever want to join with it. Like the PCUSA, the Universalist Unitarians used to be an orthodox Christian church – in this case the New England based Congregationalist church. The creed of the Congregationalists was the noble Savoy Declaration; a slightly reworked and fully orthodox version of our own Westminster Confession of Faith. The Congregationalists gave way to the liberalism of their times however – a creed which now looks quaintly old fashioned and absurd in the spirit of the liberalism of the current age – and ceased to be a part of the body of Christ. At the time the unbelievers in charge seized all the properties and bank accounts just like the unbelievers in the PCUSA are doing now. They thought they could survive off the stolen merchandise of the church's former faithful times. And for awhile, they were right. Today, though, the sect is constantly suffering money problems. Forward momentum was lost long ago, and the sect is constantly dying but never fully dead – a cold vampiric corpse lacking any modern significance. Such will be the PCUSA. Let them break the eighth commandment all they want. Membership will continue to plummet. Without future victims their momentum will be lost like the Universalist Unitarians of old. And as always, God will maintain a faithful church built on Biblical inerrancy, which shall look on the odd relic of turn-of-the-century liberalism with the same mix of pity and amusement as most folks look on the Universalist Unitarian sect now. My suspicion is that within 50 years the PCUSA and the UU will attempt a merger to try and keep their flagging ships above water. Rev. Russ Westbrook, pastor Riverside Presbyterian Church The problem with two-synods? Both would retain Presbyterian name August 23, 2006 John Almquist, in his August 21, 2006 letter to the editor, "Instead of olive branch, Louisville unsheathes a sword intent on violence," gives a clear compelling reason that the two-synod approach will never happen. Louisville will never allow it. Does anybody remember the disgraceful squashing-like-a-bug that the courageous layman (MD, PHd, engineer, inventor) Alex Metherell took at the hands of Louisville? Alex, a commissioner to the GA obtained the required number of commissioners to call the GA back into session. Then the vicious PCUSA arm-twisting began to get the signatories to recant, an action clearly beyond the PCUSA Constitution and clearly out of order. The effort succeeded. Another problem with two synods is that both synods would still retain the name Presbyterian. It would be even worse than now when conservative Presbyterians are painted with the same broad brush as liberals. Until now, people knew that the PCUSA officially stood for revealed Biblical truth. That this former clear stand has been fatally compromised by action of the 2006 GA; it has brought this organization to shame. One wonders: How do the other Presbyterian denominations handle the disgrace of sharing the Presbyterian name with us? It seems two synods would be like a man getting a divorce from a shameful wife, but having to share the same name with her in their small town. Phil Smith, in the same set of letters, states, "What is needed is some God-fearing layman to get together and after lots of prayer contact some of the principal officials and players in the General Assembly to see if they avoid this huge future train wreck that is just leaving the station." There are more laymen who are courageous like Alex. There exists a plan already sketched out for orderly gracious separation. Perhaps some of the 43 percent who voted against the PUP and witnessing the firestorm caused by approval of PUP, would sign a massive petition to call the 2006 GA back into session to consider gracious separation, approve it in concept and turn the corporate lawyers and professional mediators loose to de-merge this Pennsylvania non-profit organization called the PCUSA. James Logan McHenry, Md. Satan lurks in our Corinthian propensity to devolve into factions August 23, 2006 I would like to make a couple of observations about schism and Calvin. First, the Greek word from which we obtain the word "schism" is used by the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 1:10 and 11:18 to describe "divisions among you" (NIV). I respectfully submit that in context, Paul here condemns the existence of destructive factions within the Corinthian Christian community and not a "splitting out of Christendom and the body of Christ" as is suggested by Noel Anderson in his August 18 letter. This is not to say that a causeless separation from a community of Christians is not sinful, but rather, that such a separation is not in Paul's mind and that he might well have used a different word to describe it. (Any help, Greek scholars?) Secondly, Calvin's sin of schism (in the separation from sense) seems to be largely informed by an expansive reading of Matthew 3:12, 13:24-30, and 13:47-50 (see, Institutes 4.1.13). In particular, I am somewhat troubled that so many would turn the field in 13:24, which our Lord unequivocally identifies in v. 38 as the world, into the Church (PCUSA?) riddled with apostates. D.A. Carson says it well, "The parable [of the wheat] deals with eschatological expectations, not ecclesiological deterioration." Carson's observation applies as well to 3:12 and 13:47-48. And so in my prayers I seek God's protection from the eruption of schisms within otherwise loving evangelical Christian communities as they legitimately examine their continued affiliation with the PCUSA. In my humble opinion, this is where Satan lurks, not in Calvin's so called sin of schism, but rather, in our Corinthian propensity to devolve into factions: "I follow separation!"; another "I follow unity!" still another ... David Vicknair Colonial Presbyterian Kansas City, Mo. No faith that PUP will be the last issue in our downward spiral August 23, 2006 I was present at both gatherings in Atlanta last week. I certainly agree with Presbyterian Global Fellowship that we must move out into the world and share the "Old, Old Story of Jesus and his love." I tried to listen to every speaker at Presbyterian Coalition's meeting and came away with the following: 1. The folks that make up leadership of Presbyterian Coalition tried to sell the gathered that separation and leaving the denomination was not an option. 2. There were many there who were angry and have had enough. 3. Majority of the participants seemed to want to stay for a while longer and see if things can be changed. 4. The small group gatherings showed me that evangelicals have many different ideas about how to respond to the downward slide of our denomination. 5. There seems to be a vacuum of leadership for evangelicals. Pastors don't want to buck the system and many lay folk are apathetic. I have served as an elder in my church for many years. We rotate every three years and I removed my name from consideration several years ago. Our church has been without a full-time pastor for many years and I don't see any change in that status unless the majority of the folk in church will step out in faith and trust God for the finances that are necessary. I know so many rural churches without pastors and most are in a survival mode. It will be difficult for these folk to see the Global Fellowship's goals until their pulpits are filled. I didn't hear much discussion at either gathering of strategies to change our local presbyteries. I submit that until orthodox and evangelical Presbyterians control the inner power positions at presbytery level we will lose all the major battles. I also didn't hear any discussion about seminaries and their influence on the process. I did hear horror stories of treatment of orthodox pastors by some presbyteries. I believe that seminaries that go away from the Word of God and who discredit evangelicals have to be brought in line. I also believe that specialized clergy should not be allowed a vote at presbyteries unless they are acting in a pastor or elder role. Every time I see a poll, specialized clergy lean to the left and are the most liberal folk in denomination. I am tempted to leave denomination at this time, but I will be watching and praying for a short season to see what is occurring in the denomination. I have no faith that PUP will be the last issue in our downward spiral. I fully expect the next target will be the deity of Christ. I see a full-court press to get the denomination to approve there are many ways to God and Christ is only one of these ways. I know from my own spiritual journey that repentance is the only way to stop the slide and the progressive/liberal folk will not repent from their false doctrine. I shall pray and I know that God can alter and change if he desires. I have my doubts though he will intervene. After all, he has given us the prophets, Scripture, the Holy Spirit and Jesus. Can a people who reject all of these gifts be expected to repent and change? E.E. Jones Evangelicals are not faced with five options only two: Stay or leave August 23, 2006 I attended the Coalition meeting in Atlanta and was not surprised by the lack of desire on the Coalition board's part to lead the evangelicals out of the PCUSA. They have constantly said they don't lead, they just bring people together. But I was disappointed that they did not better set the table to which they called us. We aren't faced with five different options, we are faced with two. One is stay in the PCUSA. How one stays has different strategies and ideas but they are all basically stay and fight. The other is leave or relocate. I would love to see the Coalition set two tables around these two options and then let us choose which table to sit at. I believe that by doing so, leaders will arise at those tables that can help lead us through these times. It is not that we lack for leaders, they just don't know how to rise up when there is no place made for them. I for one would love to hear about what others think about the leave/relocate strategy. Jim Barstow First Presbyterian Church of Roseville Ken and Barbie on a mission trip will not complete the Great Commission August 23, 2006 I was most interested in the report on the opening kick-off for Presbyterian Global Fellowship (PGF), particularly the quote: Hestenes noted that many Presbyterian congregations are dispatching mission teams to other parts of the world, and she applauded this trend, not only for what it can do for those to whom the mission teams are sent, but for the transformation that such experiences can bring to the lives of team members. She tempered her endorsement of mission teams with a word of warning to those who "use the poor" by participating in such trips as a form of tourism without making any subsequent, sacrificial change in their giving habits (emphasis mine). As a career missionary, I have seen many "mission trips." Hitherto, I have not been the world's biggest advocate for these. For one thing, it gives people the impression that that is what missions is – trips. I'll be on furlough in the U.S., and I'll get introduced to somebody as "Larry Brown, the missionary." When it comes time to part company, that person will say, "Well, good luck on your trip." A much worse problem is that mission trips are not about the ones who receive them; they're about the ones who go on them. The original purpose of missions was to impart the Gospel to the heathen of the world. The purpose of mission trips seems to be to give the members of the local American church a real neat experience. Mission trips answer the question, "How can we spend our money on ourselves and still call ourselves doing missions?" In Gen. 11, the story of the Tower of Babel, God confused the languages of mankind. This means that laypeople on a mission trip can't walk into a McDonald's overseas and order a Big Mac, much less share the Gospel with anybody. If I live to be 112, I'll never forget the lady who stepped out of the van at our place and said, "Oh, look! Is that a baboon?" "Uh, no, that's my neighbor's Chow dog." "Oh." That same lady told us that she was on her 32nd mission trip, and all she did was ride around in a truck with a camera around her neck. I remember thinking that that was an awful lot of tourism. And she didn't have to pay for any of it; it was all done in the name of missions. Just yesterday, a Malawian pastor was in my office pleading for funds for outreach to Muslims. I explained to him that raising money in America was difficult, partly because they like to spend their money on mission trips. At the same time, there are African pastors who just about don't know where their next meal is coming from, and there are career missionaries who will struggle all the days of their lives to raise enough support in order to have health insurance and retirement. It seems to me that spending umpteen kajillion dollars to send Ken and Barbie and their chums to the Republic of Rubella for two weeks to serve lunch to orphans – for two weeks – may not be the best possible stewardship of God's resources. There's a church in Louisiana that every few years sends us an auto mechanic. We don't allow him to leave unless he promises to return. Send us doctors, dentists and others with specific skills to do specific jobs, not tourists. Ken and Barbie on a two-week trip will not complete the Great Commission; let them do inner-city ministry instead. Rev. Dr. Larry Brown Lilongwe, Malawi Why weren't poll results released to GA commissioners? August 23, 2006 Response to: PCUSA poll on PUP report delayed after stated clerk objected Let me see if I fully understand this article on the PCUSA poll on PUP that was taken prior to the 217th General Assembly vote on PUP. The article states, "The Presbyterian Panel is made up of a representative sample of 5,000 Presbyterians who served for a three-year period and respond to mailed questionnaires four times a year" Are you saying that when these folks were asked whether they would "definitely" or "probably" like for the PCUSA to permit sexually active gay and lesbian persons to be ordained that 31 percent of the members, 35 percent of the elders and 46 percent of the pastors said they would? Wait a minute! Isn't this another way of saying that 69 percent of the members, 65 percent of the elders and 54 percent of the pastors were against the ordination of sexually active gay and lesbian persons? I don't understand why these poll results against PUP were not shared with the commissioners who were to vote on Pup in the 217th General Assembly as outlined in the article. Couldn't this have influenced the vote and avoided all the hard feelings about the outcome? Phil Smith San Leandro, Calif. Instead of Calvin, maybe Coalition should look to Bible August 21, 2006 Rev. Paul Parsons' review of Calvin on schism at the Coalition meeting in Atlanta was at best curious. I know Presbyterians are to look to Calvin for insight. However, on the subject and other important issues before us, it seems a more worthy resource for the discussion of schism would have been the Holy Bible which God has given us as a foundation of our knowledge, understanding and instruction. Looking to another Paul, the Apostle, I find the following:
Calvin, smalvin, the schism is the membership/leadership of PCUSA offering up a false religion of the world. The reform groups trying to do business within the system have had their opportunity and lost. Their separateness in focus is their weakness and failure. The meeting in Atlanta just underscored the lack of focus and leadership in the renewal effort. Same old same old. They are out of touch with the true church and playing the same tune. Focus on the PCUSA as worthy of maintenance and saving vs. obedience to Scripture. It is the sheep who are to be tended, the unsaved to be saved, not a corrupt unclean worldly religious structure. It is time for leadership, true leadership, and unity in purpose. Possibly the New Wineskins, at least there is movement to a purpose within this group. Robert A. Browne, elder Georgia Instead of olive branch, Louisville unsheathes a sword intent on violence August 21, 2006 In most large organizations, it is common that when a sizable minority disagrees with a decision, an "olive branch" of some kind is offered. All we see from Louisville is the unsheathing of a sword, intent on violence. Actually, the two-synod approach would have been the best option but, it will never happen. The PCUSA organization would consist of one General Assembly, which would break down into two synods, say the Auburn Synod and the Westminster Synod. Each of these primary synods would have sub-synods, based upon their current geography, which would overlap each other, and presbyteries that would overlap each other. Each synod would have their own courts that stop at the top synod level. A hearing on any issue above that level would require a 70 percent vote of the Supreme Court of both synods. The panel to hear the case would consist of equal number of judges from each synod. Each synod would have its own publishing house, establish its own ordination standards and theological statements, each would have an equal number of board seats at the Presbyterian seminaries and colleges. The Mission Board would have an equal number of board members from each synod and 70 percent of mission giving from both would go to the common board. Commissions would be established at the presbytery and synod level for joint functions and domestic mission efforts between the overlapping synods and overlapping presbyteries of both the Westminster and Auburn synods, to keep the overall church unity. Each group would be safe from domination by the other, the "Progressives" in the Auburn Synod, and the more conservative theological camp in the Westminster Synod. Each would establish its own ordination and theological standards. For it to work, however, it would have to come from Louisville. Louisville would have to call an extraordinary session of the General Assembly to vote up or down on this and send it to the presbyteries for a vote. Louisville does not appear to want this and, therefore, it won't happen. They seem to prefer the "legal" violence. So, back to calling the local bar association for a consultation and having elders establish an entity separate from the church to gather assets beyond the reach of the presbytery. John Almquist Clinging to the true church when the other option is apostasy is not schismatic August 21, 2006 The Presbyterian Coalition's [present] position of working for change within as opposed to the other options is where I [presently] am. Your excellent article covering that story raises an issue I think needs addressed – it involves the issue, concept and application of "schism" and as it pertains to Calvin. As outlined for us, the view seems to be that Calvin sees schism as nothing short of being a sin. I've heard that view espoused countless times by various entities including my seminary theology professor. What seems to be left out of the equation is that Calvin was espousing this view after the church had already split, if one wants to look at it neutrally. One view is that the church of Rome had deviated so far from the true faith that it had become the apostate church, and the "protestants" were not schismatics but only returning or adhering to the true faith. This speaks volumes to our present situation. Clinging to the true church (and the Scots Confession offers a marvelous presentation of its character and nature) when the other option is apostasy is not schismatic, but may be the required thing to do. Many of us sense the time is drawing nearer when the required will have to happen. But in the event this will not come to pass, and for the present, I choose to stand and work for a negation of the PUP report move to the left. Rev. Steven L. Seng First Presbyterian Church Wellsburg, W.Va. Letter on the misuse of 'schism' is a must read August 21, 2006 Thank you, Noel K. Anderson, for your cogent and concise letter regarding "the misuse of the word 'schism.'" Your letter [posted August 18, 2006] is a must read for all who are concerned about the state of the PCUSA. R.C. Oates Brookhaven, Miss. 'Let each congregation decide which way they want to go' August 21, 2006 Sounds like another do nothing plan again. Why can't you find a way to leave and let the liberals go their own way with their property and we separate with ours. Let each congregation decide which way they want to go. Roy and Nancy Zuber PCUSA doesn't want to be repossessing and reselling church buildings August 21, 2006 Re: Pittsburgh Presbytery has a third 'secret' document on church property issues The General Assembly may have painted itself into a corner. Ever try to sell an empty church building when all or most of the congregation has left? Sure, you may get somebody to rent small parts of it, but most likely the cash flow will become negative because all the big tithers have just left to form a new community church. During the 1930 depression, many churches were in effect exempt from foreclosure by banks on their unpaid church building loans because no one else could afford to buy a church building. This was especially true in smaller communities. My point is that I don't think the General Assembly wants to get back a lot of empty church buildings with a small or non-existent congregation. They may have inadvertently painted themselves into a corner due to the controversial PUP decision in the 217th General Assembly. They don't need to get into the real estate business of repossessing and reselling church buildings. Most ordained Presbyterian ministers do not want to give up their PCUSA ordination. Wage cuts and other benefits (pension, health care etc..) to follow a congregation to a community church that is not large enough to duplicate the benefits of a denomination. Most congregations do not want to start meeting in the local high school gym because they have lost their assets and property when they left the PCUSA. I read somewhere that "Bureaucracies can't fix themselves" or "reorganize themselves into a solution." (Have your read your Book of Order lately? No easy solutions there. Even a Philadelphia lawyer couldn't understand it.) What is needed is some God-fearing layman to get together and after lots of prayer contact some of the principal officials and players in the General Assembly to see if they avoid this huge future train wreck that is just leaving the station. There must be a middle ground that reasonable Christians can agree. How about both sides of the disagreements agreeing to hire a professional Christian mediation team to intercede? This could help restore the trust between old friends in Christ. Am I just preaching to the choir? Phil Smith San Leandro, Calif. 'Thanks' for adding one more thing to the 'trash' list of PCUSA August 21, 2006 I personally do not feel the need for shock therapy regarding our government. I am going on 66 years of age and have been blessed all this time to be born and raised in America. Also there is nothing David Ray Griffin could say that would change my mind in knowing what a wonderful country we live in, one nation under God indivisible with justice and liberty for all. One thing I am certain of they did not nor did the president plot and blow up the twin towers. Sure makes for a best seller and money for Mr. David Ray Griffin doesn't it? How very sad! Clean up your act PCUSA and John Knox Press because there are a great many more wonderful subjects to write about rather than this trash and providing fame for Mr. Griffins. Shame! Why would you even consider using John Knox Press for any publication again? Those of us who love our churches are determined to not let this dark cloud spoil our worship in our churches and fellowship with those we love. We are far from thankful for your irresponsible poor decisions. PCUSA "thanks" for adding one more thing to the "trash" list of PCUSA. Mary Kortz Goldenrod, Fla. Let's be clear: Denominational unity is not sacrosanct August 18, 2006 The good folks of the Presbyterian Coalition meeting in Atlanta are clearly complicit in one of the classic blunders our denomination suffers at large; namely, the misuse of the word "schism." Properly understood, schism refers to splitting out of Christendom and the Body of Christ. Schism, as used by too many Presbyterians, means any threat to the unity of our particular institutional expression of the church. A mistaken definition of schism entails a mistaken definition of unity as well. Let's be clear here: Denominational unity is not sacrosanct. It is not schismatic to cry out against those denominational leaders apparently intent on steering the PCUSA out of Christianity into popular humanism. Nor is it in any way a sin to seek to realign our congregations with churches that refuse to take unnecessary liberties with the essentials of the faith. We must remember that the PCUSA is not the whole body – we're one small part (growing more vestigial with every GA) – and our loyalty must be to the whole. Enthusiasm over the institutional PCUSA is a misplaced charism. Enthusiasm for the whole body of Christ is the more excellent thing. So let there be no further encouragements of those who would like us to think they hold a higher moral ground by crying out for institutional unity. We don't have to care about the PCUSA per se, but we MUST care about the body of Christ and her mission. When the two are not well-aligned, then division is the necessary – albeit the last – resort. Noel K. Anderson, executive pastor First Presbyterian Church Bakersfield, Calif. Kirk of the Hills leaves the church of perfidy behind August 18, 2006 Praise God from Whom all blessings flow! How wonderful to see a fine church take on the glow! Kirk of the Hills now takes on the glow of Christ, who is not of this world, leaving the church of perfidy behind. Merice Nelles, elder (inactive) La Jolla Presbyterian Church Coalition has 'worked on it' for many years but nothing's been accomplished August 18, 2006 The effectiveness of the meeting of the Presbyterian Coalition mentioned in your article was summarized by the statement on the last line of the article, "Robert Hestenes answered: 'We're working on it.'" (italics added by writer) It appears to me they have been "working on it" for many years, but nothing is getting accomplished. Maybe what is needed is an attempt by God-fearing layman in the congregations to get out of their pews and start questioning what is happening to this great church. John Calvin, John Knox and many others must be turning over their graves at this PUP decision by the recent assembly. If the liberals have taken over with a minority of 25 percent, (according to above article) it can be taken back from them by the majority. It works in our U.S. Republic system and it can work in this church. Phil Smith San Leandro, Calif. Who will moderate Kirk meeting? August 18, 2006 I am wondering about the wisdom of Tom Gray resigning from the PCUSA before the congregation has voted to leave the denomination. Who will moderate the meeting of the congregation since it is still a part of the Presbytery of Eastern Oklahoma and Pastor Gray is not? Will the COM appoint a new moderator to lead the meeting on August 30th? Pastor Walter Hamer First Presbyterian Church Monett, Mo. New Wineskins' way forward measures up well against Coalition principles August 18, 2006 With the exception of item 6, the admittedly fuzzy provision for both "differentiation and permeability," (how does one grasp the incomprehensible?) the ten principles for discerning "a way forward" suggested by the Presbyterian Coalition seem reasonable. I am encouraged that the way forward mapped out by the New Wineskins Association of Churches (NWAC) at the Tulsa Convocation measures up very well against these requirements. It also embraces, in some measure, all of the "Five Options" for moving ahead listed by the Coalition. 1. Reform within. The NWAC Congregational Action Plan calls "on sessions and presbyteries to affirm as essential current ordination standards as they exist in the Book of Order and Confessions so that no exceptions will be offered or recognized within their jurisdictions." 2. Fellowship – forming like-minded groups for fellowship within the PCUSA. The NWAC Congregational Action Plan invites local churches to "enter formal connected relationships in New Wineskins ministry networks." Such networks consist of three to eight congregations that covenant together for mutual ministry and mission on the basis of a common commitment to the Essential Tenets of our Reformed Faith. Also, the national level action plan "will call for a congress of renewal network leaders" for the purpose of pursuing "common ground for a preferred future." 3. Trans-geographic presbyteries. By constituting itself as an Association of Churches, the NWAC has cut-through-the-red-tape of "calling on the denomination to allow the formation of non-geographic presbyteries on the basis of theological conviction." Any local church that shares the conservative/evangelical/confessing theological conviction of the NWAC, may affiliate with the Association. Although it is not an ordaining body, neither does it require abandoning responsibility to or participation in the PCUSA. Belonging to the NWAC is an added commitment, over and above membership in the denomination. 4. Two-synod model. Again, formal organization as an Association of Churches allows the NWAC to gather many of the benefits of a two-synod model without undergoing the difficult process of dividing the denomination into separate "evangelical" and "progressive" governing bodies. Every congregation in the PCUSA may select affiliation with the NWAC in addition to belonging to our denomination. It is a both/and instead of an either/or strategy, but the effect is much the same. Congregations have fellowship with and formal connection to like-minded congregations at a local, regional, and national level. 5. Separation or relocation. Selecting the both/and option currently provided by affiliation with the NWAC may not be a choice for all time. The NWAC is not touting the possibility or running headlong toward it; but, with due caution and reasoned judgment, the Association is committed to having a strategy team that "will consider a wide range of options for action, which will include an examination of Biblical, spiritual, missional, congregational, strategic, legal considerations, and which could include the request for dismissal of a congregation from its presbytery." The strategy team will report to the Association membership at a Winter Convocation, February 8-9, 2007, at the First Presbyterian Church of Orlando, Fla. Sessions and congregations that are questioning the actions of the 217th General Assembly or who find themselves disaffected by the liberal/progressive bent of our denomination, should give serious consideration to seeking membership in the New Wineskins Association of Churches. Information about affiliating with the NWAC is available at newwineconvo.com. Jim Henkel, NWAC endorsing church pastor North Benton Presbyterian Church North Benton, Ohio Eastminster Presbytery 'I can see no movement nor purpose in what the Coalition is saying' August 18, 2006 I did not attend the meeting of the Coalition because I've been to two before and found it without direction, unable to channel the energy stirred by actions of our General Assembly. It is my opinion that the Coalition has failed and would do service to the church to disband and release its membership to the New Wineskins Association. I hate to say this, but in my few years of involvement in following renewal organizations, I can see no movement nor purpose in what the Coalition is saying. "Stay, fight, win" is not what I see. It's "Stay, try to get along and not have anyone mad at me and don't rock my boat, and watch as everything I say I want to win bites the dust leaving its members sitting here saying another day, 'stay, fight, win.'" Yeah, right. I'm also concerned that the Global Fellowship will be nothing more than a "there's an elephant in the house but let's all work around it," organization. How do I talk about mission when there is a crisis of this proportion? It's like trying to talk to me about your summer vacation during my mother's eulogy. There is an elephant in the house and it's retarding everyone in the house. If this is all the Global Fellowship is, I hope they suggest that those who see a crisis that demands attention will go to the New Wineskins and save mission training to Global Fellowship and not to confuse it with a renewal organization. I don't see mission's emphasis as the need in the evangelical wing of the PCUSA, but what is happening to our denomination I see of our highest priority. Mike Gibson, pastor Munford Presbyterian Church GAs make decisions regardless of the faith of the members in the pews August 18, 2006 This e-mail is from Paul and Ollie-May McGuire, both former members of Hunter Presbyterian Church in Lexington, Ky. We would like to make both the Presbyterian Church (PCUSA) General Assembly and Transylvania Presbytery aware that we requested our names be removed from the rolls of Hunter Presbyterian Church and severed our ties with the Presbyterian Church (USA) because of the continued decline of the morals of the church culminating with the actions of the 217th General Assembly. Ollie-May has been a member of a PCUSA church or its predecessors for 53 continuous years, Paul for 47 continuous years. We do not want our reason for leaving the church lost in the numbers reported on the annual GA report. We want to be a part of a church that promotes the love of Jesus Christ and get away from a church that continues to spend a major portion of our time bickering over and condoning political agendas that promote sinful lifestyles. The PCUSA and its forerunners over the past 30+ years have made decisions at the General Assembly level regardless of the faith and belief of the members in the pews. With the advance of communication technology, we have been able to follow the unChristian action or lack of action of the GA officials and culminating with the actions of the 217th GA. The PCUSA can now live with the decisions it has promoted. Ollie-May McGuire Paul McGuire Where did the information come from? August 18, 2006 "The majority of the members of the Presbyterian Church are members of the Republican Party," Adams told Agape Press. "Now, I'm not holding that up as a good example of what the church ought to be comprised of, but that's a fact," he says, "so I would assume that many in the Republican Party might be very supportive of the policies of George Bush." I recently ran across this quote and I'm curious about where Mr. Adams gets his information. Are you conducting some kind of survey about political affiliation in churches? Kristen Fernekes Alexandria, Virginia According to the PCUSA's Research Services in "A Presbyterian Panel Shapshot: Characterstics of Members of the PCUSA" Republicans make up 55 percent of the denomination; Democrats 25 percent, Independents 17 percent and others three precent. The Editors. Evangelicals should read up on the Great Disruption of 1843 August 18, 2006 May I suggest that this is the time for concerned evangelical Presbyterians to read up on the Great Disruption of 1843? At that time, about a third of the ministers, and perhaps half of the lay members of the established Presbyterian Church of Scotland left the church over a matter of principle (undue state control) in order to form the independent Free Church of Scotland. Thomas Brown's Annals of the Disruption (1890) describes in detail how the Free Church, excluded from the Kirks of the established church, launched a massive (and self-financed) program of church construction to house the congregations of the newly independent denomination. It can be done, and the experience 19th-century Free Church shows how to do it! Thanks for your attention. Bob Emery Albany, N.Y. A mole in Louisville? August 18, 2006 A copy of the "privileged and confidential" documents was sent to The Layman in an envelope with no return address. It is my understanding that the envelope carried a Louisville postmark! How about that? A mole in Louisville? YEAH! Art Montgomery PCUSA elder (inactive) Santa Barbara, Calif. PCUSA has become a denomination that worships man not Jesus Christ August 17, 2006 I am a blessed member of the Providence Presbyterian Church, PCA, in Beeville, Texas. Mark Spence is my pastor. The pride I feel in Mark's commitment to Christ knows no bounds. First Presbyterian Church of Beeville is the church we left to follow Christ. It was sad to leave because that beautiful old church was the church of my parents. I was raised at the knee of Miss Suzie Reagan and guided by the organization and devotion of Mrs. A.C. Jones and the elders who truly were chosen of God. I was baptized in that sanctuary, I was one of the last three youth that memorized the Shorter Catechism in order to receive my first "grown-up" Bible. My twin sister, Judi Williamson, my dearest friend, Rosemary Reagan and myself were examined by a committee of elders. We made our public profession of faith at 9 years of age My sister and I were married in that sanctuary. Our grandmother and both our parents were buried from that sanctuary. I have grandchildren christened in that sanctuary. The history is bound in my entire life. I carried those members and memories with me in my heart for a life time. Yet, when Mark called us to go forth in God's Word I did not hesitate. The USA denomination is ungodly, it has become a denomination that worships man not Jesus Christ. The Word cautions us that you serve either Jesus Christ or Satan. They there is no middle ground! The denomination of the USA is full of anger and vindictiveness. The PCUSA defrocked Mark Spence for a reason only they know. They did not follow procedure in anyway. Mark is now an ordained missionary in the PCA and our church is a priority for that denomination in this place. God had been gracious to us. Without Mark here in Beeville at this time, I would have no place to turn for a church home here. We have 26 members as of last week. We meet at a local Best Western motel, we are blessed. For those left behind there is much anger and malice to be found in them. I feel so strongly about the PCA. I belonged to this denomination for years before returning to Beeville 9 years ago. It is driven by the Holy Ghost and prospers. Prayers must be lifted to bind Satan that God's Word shall prevail in everyone's heart. All should be admonished that God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He will hold those who lead his lambs astray accountable. Let that be an admonition to us all. May Jesus Christ work in us his great and good will. Jane Wicker 'Does PPC publish just any opinion by anyone, regardless of qualifications?' August 17, 2006 To be sure, there is a place for controversial opinions. But this Griffin is a "theologian" of sorts. He has no credentials in any area relevant to a consideration of the 9/11 catastrophe. Why should anyone take him seriously, "engage" his "arguments," or do anything but dismiss his work as silly? Does PPC publish just any opinion by anyone, regardless of qualifications? Are there no criteria of competence? May we expect next to read the views of a plumber on the history of Trinitarian doctrinal development? Dan Reuter Nashville, Ind. 'I hope all of you will stop using PPC resources' August 17, 2006 I am copying the text of a note I sent to PPC/WJKP this morning. Perhaps others would like to jump on the wagon with me.
Rev. James C. Yearsley Tampa Opening a subject to discussion is not an excuse for publication of lunatic ravings August 17, 2006 How ironic that such polluted trash as Prof. Griffin's book should be published by an arm of a Calvinist church! John Calvin, and supposedly the Presbyterian Church, prized a true understanding of God's will enough to inspire the founding of universities and colleges wherever Reformed faith went. Consider the Massachusetts Bay Colony (1630) and Harvard (1636). Understanding God's will unlikely to come from any individual, Calvin's thought also inspired Presbyterian polity, not merely to break the power of the priest, but to find God's will and the truth. Prof. Griffin, as faculty in a United Methodist school, may not have subscribed to Calvin's understanding. But any publisher associated with the Presbyterian should, and opening a subject to discussion is inadequate excuse for publication of lunatic ravings. The publication is the more ironic in that another Los Angeles County author, Terry McDermott of the Los Angeles Times, has actually taken the time to research the issue through hundreds of interviews with Muslim adherents in the same circles from which the 9/11 terrorists came for his book, Perfect Soldiers. Asked if there was any doubt of who was responsible for our new day of infamy, he responded that there is no shred of doubt for anyone who honestly researches the subject. Mr. McDermott's employer is neither Presbyterian nor United Methodist, and it is notoriously as liberal as either of those churches. Would that a seminary professor could muster as much curiosity about the truth and as much diligence pursuing that rather than partisan anger, as does a Los Angeles Times writer. Wendell L. Webster Glendale Presbyterian Picture downtown's First Presbyterian Church becoming an AME church August 17, 2006 Life is full of irony. Take, for example, the issue of PCUSA presbyteries taking over church property. If it were just a matter of one or two isolated cases, it would be one thing. But what if the PCUSA suddenly acquired several hundred almost-but-not-quite empty church buildings? What would they do with them? Sell them. To whom? Evangelical or Pentecostal church groups, that's who. One can easily imagine the downtown First Presbyterian Church becoming an AME or Church of God in Christ church. Which means that these properties would once again be used for the glory of God. God one, PCUSA zero, God wins again! Rev. Dr. Larry Brown African Bible College Lilongwe, Malawi Presbytery's tactics signal how this whole PUP thing is 'going to go down' August 17, 2006 RE: Attack by Prospect Hill Presbytery on the minister and congregation of Riverside Presbyterian Church in Linn Grove, Iowa. This is a classic example of intimidation: attack the minister, Russ Westbrook and punish the congregation of Riverside Presbyterian Church in Linn Grove, Iowa, by taking away their assets and property. If these bullying tactics on the part of the Presbytery of Prospect Hill don't signal how this whole PUP thing is "going to go down" in the future for the whole country, I don't know what will. Maybe this will finally get some of the faithful out of their pews to take some action against the liberals who have captured the Presbyterian church leadership before the whole PCUSA is ruined. Phil Smith Former member and elder of a Presbyterian church PCUSA Web site doesn't mention current unrest in denomination August 17, 2006 It is interesting that on the PCUSA Web site, there is no mention or recognition of the current unrest of a large percentage of members. There are no news stories about it. There is no mention of the property battles and troubles. There is nothing found about the churches that are currently wanting to break away from the PCUSA over the recent GA actions. At least I could not find anything. But this is not too surprising to me. I guess we need to pretend that there is peace, unity and purity. They say, "Peace, Peace; when there is no peace." "There is no peace," says the Lord, "for the wicked." Bill McSpadden Kingsport, Tenn. How can PUP issue be closed when it clearly seems to be unconstitutional? August 17, 2006 If the assembly's majority vote on PUP "broke our denomination's constitution, amending standards by a majority vote of commissioners rather than by a majority vote of the presbyteries," HOW can it stand? How can this issue be closed when it clearly seems to be unconstitutional? Carol Taylor 'PCUSA not only lost its soul, but its heart as well' August 16, 2006 Reading this article gives me shivers. Aren't they in violation of RICO? Isn't this the kind of bondage and atrocity the protestant leaders of Reformation wanted so desperately to get away from? PCUSA not only lost its soul, but its heart as well. Slight decency on their part would prevent them from freezing assets of local congregations who use their accounts to expand God's work – no matter what the reason is. PCUSA would do better to learn from Paul who said, "What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice." Instead, their blindness born of greed would stop even God's work that God had entrusted to each congregation. If that's not going against God's will, I don't know what is. Something is very, very wrong here! Peter B. Min 'Inclusive' talk fades away when a church takes a Biblically-based stand August 16, 2006 I just read your article concerning the situation at the Riverside Presbyterian Church, and I have a question regarding the rights of the congregation. What can this congregation do to stand up against the presbytery which has put the pastor on extended leave and plans to put the church under the control of an administrative commission? Are there any actions the members can undertake to express their opposition to what the presbytery is doing, or are they just expected to wave a white flag and give in to these extreme upheavals to their spiritual lives? Can the members take any legal action in civil court or in the PCUSA judicial system? I fail to see any good coming out of this action other than to alienate some people who have been faithful members of the PCUSA and drive them out of the denomination. I guess the leaders of the PCUSA are out to see if they can establish a new membership loss record. Let's see, we had a decline of over 48,500 members last year. Maybe next year will see losses of 60,000, 75,000, or even more. This situation in the PCUSA certainly says a lot about peace, love and unity to those unchurched people around us, doesn't it? My, my all that talk about being "inclusive" fades away fast when a church dares to take a Biblically-based stand. Peggy Alexander, elder Kirk of the Hills Tulsa, Okla. Prospect Hill can't be faulted for not following through on its proposal August 16, 2006 In his Aug. 15 post, Walker Ferguson states that Prospect Hill Presbytery voted to consider leaving the denomination if the PUP report was passed. This isn't actually accurate. Orthodox ministers within the presbytery (of which I was one) wanted such a proposal, but by the time it hit the floor of presbytery it had been watered down to a much lamer stance of "considering some sort of response" instead if the heresy passed. Pass it did; the response adopted – if actions are taken as normative – is oppression, persecution and fear. As this technically is a response, I suppose Prospect Hill can't be faulted for not following through on its proposal. Russ Westbrook, pastor Riverside Presbyterian Church Liberals and conservatives use the same words but with different meanings August 16, 2006 Earl Apel [letter to the editor, posted August 15, 2006] cannot see the difference between the current condition of the Presbyterian Church (USA) and the condition of the UPCUSA at the time of the adoption of the Confession of 1967. More's the pity, and it is proof of the great divide between liberals and conservatives. Earl cannot see that the language he uses about Jesus and about Scripture has different underlying presuppositions than those of conservatives and evangelicals. Just as Drema Davis [letter to the editor, posted August 15, 2006] believes that because she has examined a few like-minded "research" tomes or histories that David Griffin's book has some validity that many if not most Presbyterians would reject whole-heartedly and completely, so many liberals live by a view of reality that might encompass many of the same words but has a totally different meaning and view from conservatives. Because Jack Roger's "spiritual journey" connects with someone else's spiritual journey does not make his conclusions correct! Just because you can stretch isolated items in to tenous or possible connections does not make 9/11 a "Bushist" plot! The gulf between us as to what is true or not true is staggering. The Confession of 1967 was a mere camel's nose in the Presbyterian Church tent. It would have been profoundly prophetic but extremely premature for The Layman to call for or undertake a leaving of the church at that point. The church was indeed asleep to let so important a compromising of the authority of Holy Scripture to sneak in despite its almost subliminal nature. But the leadership made great use of the moral high ground of the civil rights movement and painted many of the confession's opponents as racists. The growing levels of theological as well as Biblical illiteracy made it simple to get the average pewsitter to see nothing earth-shaking in it all. It is remarkable how the more things change in terms of tactics the more they stay the same. The current leadership preaches that some how a status quo has been maintained, yet a new way of being the church has also been initiated that should enable peace, unity and purity to be maintained. And if that subtle status quo is an implicit congregationalism that sees presbyteries, synods and especially the General Assembly as costly nuisances to the local congregations – with every congregation doing what is right in its own eyes – they may be right. That would be a new way of being a Presbyterian church, but one which defies what Presbyterian once meant and actually should mean. That condition is a far way from what it was when the Confession of 1967 first nosed under the tent. The faith is much more at stake now than it was then, although hindsight does enable us to see that past event as more significant than those at the time thought. Now, when someone like Dr. Gagnon refutes an opponent like Jack Rogers on academic grounds and correctly points out where Roger's has either misrepresented or outright lied about his positions, it is he who is hard-hearted and uncivil. Would it have been kinder to have simply presented a catalogue of Roger's errors and then attributed them to stupidity? And if there are not objective grounds for arbitrating between Dr. Roger's and Dr. Gagnon's positions, then there are no objective grounds for our continued faux unity in the Presbyterian Church (USA). Why assert a unity that clearly does not exist? Biblical authority? Then it must be a uniform Biblical authority or we are back to making a subjective assertion. If truth cannot be objectively known, then why keep us all together? Let each sub-group pursue truth in its own way. But then what would we do with current assets and liabilities? It is not feasible to have every congregation sell their property and every presbytery and synod and the offices in Louisville also be sold and the combined assets all be pooled and then fairly distributed to all the separating entities no matter how they are grouped. Seminaries and colleges could just be freed from their connections – something some would argue that many do in effect already. It just ain't gonna happen. Each sub-group would then have to undertake a historic journey to prove they could build again something like what the Presbyterian Church (USA) was after most of its journey through history with many ups and downs, splits and reunions. It is just not going to happen. I agree that we are rapidly reaching a crisis point, and I pray and hope that conservative, evangelical and renewal groups will do all that they can to act together. I know that there is no current consensus as to how to act – pull out, stay and fight, reform the polity and hope for a better position from which to carry out faithful mission? I don't know how such diverse views (true diversity within the unity of seeking biblical faithfulness) will be resolved. But I pray they are and that a mostly unified action will bear witness to both the society at large and to the leaders who cried peace when there was no peace. It will be a sad day if the chosen action is to walk away from property and assets to seek more faithful ground. One wonders if the liberal remnant will have any moments of doubt about their actions or any guilt over the use of usurped assets that were given for a different faith than their own? I doubt it. They still think their new way of being church and new doctrines are somehow in continuity with the historic Christian faith. Rev. Scott Mackey Highland Presbyterian Church Tyler, Texas Blame is on the bearer of the truth rather than on those who deny it August 16, 2006 Apparently a liberal is not "liberal" with a generous dose of "let's separate with peace and love" but are really narrow power, property hungry, "let's not give an evangelical the time of day," gang who look down upon anyone who disagrees with their anti-Biblical beliefs and support of cultural digression gospel. The Lord will indeed bless and prosper those who choose to follow the truth. Therefore, whose property and whose ministry is it are mute points in the overall picture of a presbytery who has lost its anchor and blames it all on the bearers of the truth rather on themselves who deny it. Rev. Joseph J. Gasper, honorably retired PCUSA Does PCUSA use 'violence to achieve their agenda and control' churches? August 16, 2006 The conclusion in Drema Davis' letter [posted August 15, 2006] deserves comment: "When you honestly study history, governments have always used violence to achieve their agenda and control people." Question, Drema. Does your statement apply equally to the elected national government of the PCUSA? The recent PCUSA publications regarding "church property" certainly support your thesis! Art Montgomery, elder Santa Barbara, Calif. Why not call for a vote anyway, phrased as a repudiation? August 16, 2006 I was just reading about the action taken by St. Helena's Episcopal Church in repudiating the actions of the General Convention of the ECUSA. I applaud the position taken. Has anyone considered initiating a similar formal repudiation of the broken covenant actions of the 217th GA of the PCUSA, not signed by a single congregation but by all congregations who are willing to do so. In other words, since the GA decided to change the constitution without a vote of the people, why not call for a vote anyway, phrased as a repudiation? Would such an initiative be viewed as "dissent, which is always constitutionally protected" or "defiance, which is never, ever protected?" Col Ronald Everett, AUS-Ret North Olmsted, Ohio Words of God versus the words of social scientists and psychologists August 16, 2006 If there ever was a doubt as to what kind of people are running the PCUSA, there is none now, as we see the Presbytery of Prospect Hill in Iowa manhandle Riverside Presbyterian Church, its session and its pastor. I don't know where the marching orders are coming from, but seeing the legal opinion on property from Louisville makes the office of the stated clerk an excellent suspect. I wonder if John Pehrson still thinks that the rhetoric from conservatives in The Layman Online is overly abusive? I love Robert Gagnon. It is clear that Betty Kurtz Hamilton [letter to the editor, posted August 15, 2006] of Redwoods Presbytery does not love Dr. Gagnon. Dr. Gagnon used the revealed Word of God in his 30-page Power Point address to refute the likes of the former evangelical – turned liberal – Jack Rogers on the issue of homosexuality. I am convinced that Gagnon's use of the words of prophets and apostles is precisely what rankles Ms. Hamilton. I suspect that she would be more comfortable with the words of social scientists and psychologists who put the puny wisdom of this world above the revealed Word of God. God is watching as ministers lead others and he does hold each of them personally accountable for the damage done to their followers' souls. One fiery minister likes to say "I don't intend to go to hell for myself; God knows; I am not going there for you!" James H. Logan Sr. PCUSA viewed as not as a place to worship but as a denomination to be avoided August 15, 2006 Congratulations to the PCUSA for the hardball stance concerning congregations desiring to leave the PCUSA with their property. Its action is having wonderful results with respect to the peace and unity within the denomination that the PUP report acceptance was to have brought us. The intended firing of the pastor and taking of church property from the Riverside Presbyterian Church speaks well for propagating the faith throughout the world. The end result will most likely be an exodus of the majority from this small church, a remnant left to cope with attempting to keep the church alive with no pastor, little money but some presbytery funding, a dominant administrative commission and a soon to be scattered congregation from a boarded-up building. The majority will most likely remain together in a new church (not PCUSA), continue to worship God and eventually build another structure That the funds going into new brick and mortar could have been used to spread the Word to the unreached is irrelevant. Louisville's desire to win and to hold the denomination together at all costs is the issue here. Whether we worship the Lord or the god of world culture is a secondary issue. The general public will view the belligerent PCUSA not as a place to worship God but as a denomination to be avoided. The negative news reports of the 217th GA speak loud and clear about our denomination. Our attempts to increase membership flies in the face of our actions. As has been noted recently, who will be around to turn out the lights and lock the doors when the end comes? I picture some of our denomination leaders at the final judgment. Jesus asks them what they did to serve him on earth. They reply, "With much effort we were able to destroy the Presbyterian Church." Is Jesus going to respond by saying, "Well done thy good and faithful servants?" Bill Arthur Greenville, S.C. 'My sandals are on and my staff in hand' August 15, 2006 As an elder of First Presbyterian, Quincy, Ill., I want to say that Peggy Hedden has hit the nail on the head. I totally concur with her assessment. I just pray that those who are faithful to the truth will stick around long enough to leave the denomination with other like-minded persons, and that the faithful can stomach the messy struggle that separating from PCUSA will bring. My sandals are on and my staff in hand. I just don't know where God has plans to take me and my church. Tim Koontz First Presbyterian Church Quincy, Ill. PCUSA is becoming more unholy each day August 15, 2006 I applaud Windsor Presbyterian Church for its stand. The PCUSA is becoming more apostate each day. I truly wish the denomination itself would wake up. God demands we live a holy life that is separate from the ways of the world and the PCUSA is becoming more unholy each day. The worst mistake is divesting from Israel. Ron Bowling Jr. Windsor church: We have to stand on the living Word of God August 15, 2006 It pains me to think about it but I feel it is time for the true church to move on. All I know right now is that I will weep greatly when there comes a day that I am driving down the road and look over at that corner and instead of seeing a place that I can go to worship God sits a place that I can pull into and purchase a cold or hot beverage because we were forced to leave the church to the true Presbyterians and the Presbytery of Des Moines sold the land for a profit for the better good of the presbytery. I am weeping now just thinking about it, but we have to stand on the living Word of God and have no other choice. Jay Blankenship Member of Windsor's true church Words hardly befit a saintly Jack Rogers, a man of enormous integrity August 15, 2006 This letter is in reference to the article under 2006 General Assembly, "Gagnon: 'Lie', 'duplicity' and 'deception' underlie new book by Jack Rogers" "Lie, duplicity and deception" are words that hardly befit a saintly Jack Rogers, a man of enormous integrity! When I found his book, I was amazed at the details that showed a life long journey to understand where I, as a Christian can make sense of today's world and the message Jesus so patiently gave us. I can only pity one such as Gagnon in his egotistic approach – a visit to Corinth might help! Rev. Betty Kurtz Hamilton Sonoma, Calif. Redwoods Presbytery Hold loosely to things and hold fast to the 'Word' August 15, 2006 I believe when Jezebel sends her lovers and children to take our property we should respond in the way the author of Hebrews says the early church did, "For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one." (10:34) So, church do not fear, hold loosely to things and hold fast to the "Word." John Thomas Silverdale, Wash. 'The Kremlin in Louisville' August 15, 2006 Both my parents escaped from Stalinist Russia during World War II. I have listened to their many experiences and stories as they "journeyed" through their life and faith walk. I see direct parallels between Kremlin tactics of the former Soviet Union and the secretive, hardline, godless, non-Biblical graceless, merciless and diabolical tactics being taken by Louisville. I henceforth resolve to refer to all Louisville references as "The Kremlin in Louisville." Secret meetings, secret scheming of the PUP report, secret war tactics on believers, communistic confiscation of properties only indicates that there is something to hide, for sin always makes us want to hide. What's next? Gulags? Oops! Forgive me for planting that suggestion, but then, the Kremlin in Louisville has no doubt already considered it and is awaiting more per capita monies with which to fund them. Monika Sawyer Middle Sandy Church Homeworth, Ohio Get involved. Criticizing or word-smithing from afar will not help the process August 15, 2006 I read with growing concern the numerous blogs and letters to various editors that seem to work at picking apart the renewal movements and groups acting for a change or even something totally new for our denomination. I remember seeing the looks on faces in Birmingham after the passing of the theological task force report and hearing a cry for unity among the different evangelical groups. That unity is possible if the conservatives, evangelicals, and those unhappy with our denomination remember a few things. First, change comes slowly. I realize that many have been working for years and have reached their limit; I encourage you to wait until a critical mass has been achieved and clear direction from the Lord has been given. Making decisions on an individual basis will not serve the greater needs and purposes of the Body of Christ and will only fritter away resources. Secondly, get on board and work for change. Call Presbyterians for Renewal, the Constitutional Presbyterians, the New Wineskins Association of Churches or another group and find out what you can do. Staying on the fringes and criticizing, word-smithing, or generally muddying the waters of change from afar will not help the process. For those who are waiting for the perfect "new thing" to come along, and until then you choose to sit outside the process of change dragging your feet, let me encourage you that the perfect church will come along; it will be in heaven. Until such time as the Lord calls you home I suggest you put your gifts of writing, administration, theological education, etc. to work in the cause of shaping our future, not picking apart those attempting to discern the Lord's will. Third, do not sit outside the process of change and say, "I cannot be part of The New Wineskins Association of Churches or Presbyterian Global Fellowship, etc. because they don't include this word, this thought or the phrasing I think is perfect in their statements." Look at what is going on and focus on what you can support instead of what you feel is missing. Now is the time! The "new thing" is coming so help make it a reality. The Lord is calling us to something greater than arguing over the same thing for 30 years, losing 30,000+ members every year, closing churches when we should be planting new ones, etc Join us in seeking his face and perfect will for our future together. Randy Jenkins Central Presbyterian Church Huntsville, Ala. Prospect Hill Presbytery voted to consider severing ties with the PCUSA August 15, 2006 It seems a little odd to me that in regard to the Riverside Church story you have made no mention of the fact that Prospect Hill Presbytery is one of the presbyteries that had voted to consider severing ties with the PCUSA after the recent approval of the PUP Task Force report. Wouldn't this piece of information be pertinent to your story? Or does it conflict with your desire to vilify the presbytery and its moderator? I wonder about the journalistic integrity of your publication if your writers can't even remember stories they wrote themselves. Walker Ferguson Chesapeake, Va. Battle raging in PCUSA has deep-seated roots in vastly different world-views August 15, 2006 The responses I have received to my letters are typical of much of our modern culture, which has impacted the church in vital ways. Dr. David Wells addresses the current mentality of our Christian churches in his extremely incisive book. "… There is a hunger for religious experience but an aversion to theological definition of that experience … a hunger for God but a disenchantment with dogma or doctrine … abandonment of boundaries between God and the self and between one religion and another ... results in a smorgasbord of spirituality for which the only accepted criterion of truth is the pragmatic one of what seems to work personally." (David F. Wells, God in the Wasteland: the Reality of Truth in a World of Fading Dreams, p.99) It continues to intrigue me how so many refer to themselves as "evangelical," and then proceed to espouse views that lie well outside the bounds of what has commonly been understood as evangelical positions. In our postmodern culture, the categories are easily mixed and muddled, which creates a great amount of confusion and disillusionment. Historic reformed Protestantism has been well defined over many decades with certain variations within certain clear boundaries, just as theological liberalism has been well established for many decades with certain variations, also within certain boundaries. I would refer those who wrote in disagreeing with what I wrote as being the positions of theological liberalism to highly regarded, thoroughly researched, scholarly works such as Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology, and Lewis & Demarest's Integrative Theology. At this crucial juncture in the history of this denomination, it is absolutely critical that we clearly define our terms, clearly understand our positions, and fully understand those with whom we are siding. To align oneself with theological liberalism and not understand how profoundly opposed it is to historic Reformed faith is dangerous at best. Much of this kind of confusion could have been alleviated by clearly setting forth the essentials of the reformed faith as the Presbytery of San Diego, The New Wineskins and others have done. Is it too much to ask for Christian leaders to have, "a firm grasp of the word that is trustworthy in accordance with the teaching, so that he may be able both to preach with sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict … but as for you, teach what is consistent with sound doctrine." (Titus 1:9, 2:1)? The battle that is raging within this denomination has deep-seated roots in vastly different world-views and theologies and if we do not understand the differences, we will be easily deceived. Adel Thalos Snellville, Ga. What is the difference between what is happening now and in 1967? August 15, 2006 Your latest editorial raises some interesting points. These comments are of interest: "We fervently pray that the renewalists will see the devastation of the PCUSA as vividly as Joel did nearly three millennia ago and heed the prophet's call." "May this summer be the time when the renewalists forge a common bond that will no longer allow complicity with the PCUSA's course of a false peace, a false unity and a false purity." Yet your Web site still contains a history of The Layman and states the following regarding your response to the adopted Confession of 1967: "But they did not take consolation in being prophetically correct. They would not stand by idly and watch the Presbyterian Church disintegrate. They believed God had required their faithfulness and commitment in whatever direction the denomination was heading." One the one hand it seems to me you express the idea that the PCUSA will perish. Yet on the other hand in your original statement you express loyalty that it will not perish. So which course do you really take these days? Do you need to make some updates on your website to bring about consistency? Even though I'm a liberal I do have the capacity to realize when things just don't jive and are contradictory in a literal sense. Honestly I don't understand what is the difference between what is happening now and in 1967? I do most definitely understand your point of view on things. But I don't get the big fuss raised now about things. It is as though so many have been sleeping. But you haven't really been sleeping have you? Earl C. Apel, member Mount Auburn Presbyterian Church Cincinnati, Ohio Expressed trust is not found in the confessions August 15, 2006 PCUSA claims that its "expressed trust" is historical polity of the "Presbyterian church." I have been trying to find the recorded record that backs up this claim. Surprise, surprise, I can't find it in any of the Confessions or elsewhere. Could you suggest where I may find information that PCUSA uses to justify its claim? I suspect they base it on the several U.S. Supreme Court decisions during the 1800s-1900s. If so, it was a secular polity and, later, the cases were not precedent after l979. Dawson Watkins We should never be afraid to ask questions August 15, 2006 Regarding the story of July 31st, "PCUSA publishing book accusing President Bush of orchestrating 9/11 attacks," I applaud the publishing house for printing Dr. David Ray Griffin's (no relation) book Christian Faith and the Truth Behind 9/11. Yes, it is very disturbing to consider that one's government could possibly commit a terrorist attack on its own citizens to manipulate them, but such events have occurred throughout history. If what Dr. Griffin says is true, then the anger at those responsible for 9/11 is being directed wrongly. Anger is a stage of a grief reactions towards unpleasant truths, and helps protect us against what we cannot fully cope with. If Griffin is wrong, then so be it. If he correct, however, the consequences are enormous. We should never be afraid to ask questions, and be skeptical in a democracy. It is the basis for maintaining any democracy, and constitutional law. I believe it is also part of a fully developed spiritual life. Robert E. Griffin Psychologist Forty Fort, Pa. Publishing arm makes PCUSA look less credible and responsible August 15, 2006 It is hard for me to believe that our own Presbyterian publishing company has gone ahead and published a book, Christian Faith and the Truth Behind 9/11: A Call to Reflection and Action, that accuses the President of the United States and other members of our government of committing cold-hearted, calculated mass murder of thousands of U.S. Citizens in the 9/11 tragedy. What kind of Cool-Aid are they drinking? The PCUSA should immediately demand that the publishing company cease publishing such trash. It really makes our denomination look less credible and responsible. Dr. Will Fletcher, pastor Vaughn Presbyterian Church Bentonville, Ark. Churches that leave could end up as the only viable ones with any property August 15, 2006 The recently expressed concern over ownership of church property has been interesting and informative. The impression one gets is that congregations who wish to leave the PCUSA may have great difficulty leaving with their church property while those that stay have the use of their property assured. But such may not be the case. Consider the following scenario. Although the "slouching towards Gomorrah" began many years ago, the straw that seems to have broken the camel's back has been the issue of gay ordination. Assuming this proceeds within the denomination, one might reasonably expect the future to produce a number of lawsuits similar in nature to those addressed to the Catholic church in recent years at a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars. Perhaps I have just missed it, but I have not seen any discussion regarding the inevitable risks to the financial stability of the PCUSA that gay ordination almost assuredly introduces. Some might say that losses from any such suits would be covered by insurance, but it is my understanding that insurance does not cover illegal actions. While it is unlikely that such suits would accumulate a cost comparable to that experienced by the Catholic Church, the PCUSA certainly does not have the deep pockets of the Catholic Church and could easily find themselves headed for bankruptcy. Now, during the intervening years leading up to this period of likely individual and class-action suits, the record would likely show years of numerous civil court cases carefully orchestrated by the denomination to show that the property of individual congregations is really owned by the denomination. With such a consistent record, combined with the clearly professed and supported hierarchical structure of the PCUSA, it may not be a stretch to conclude that all denomination property might well be considered by the courts as available to settle any suits that may arise. Bottom line is that as one looks to the future, churches that leave could end up as the only viable ones with any property. Only God knows his intent for the future, but the actions we see taken today and in the near future may provide a clue. Col Ronald Everett, AUS-Ret North Olmsted, Ohio Most will agree with Prof. Griffin that 9/11 was an inside job August 15, 2006 I disagree that most Presbyterian's will disagree with Prof. Griffin's new book. I am a member of the PCUSA, an independent, and was attracted to the denomination because of their thirst for peace, truth and knowledge through the love of Christ. I am sure that if people read the book with an open mind and really look at the evidence, most will agree with Prof. Griffin that 9/11 was an inside job. I have studied this subject intensely over the last two years and was as shocked as Prof. Griffin in my findings. When you honestly study history, governments have always used violence to achieve their agenda and control their people. Sad but true. Drema Davis A church without spiritual depth must support social change August 15, 2006 It is reasonable and logical for an avowed atheist to join a Christian church. The reason that it is reasonable and logical is that for some pastors and churches the mission of the church is to serve the world of politics and culture. The Democratic Party is a secular advocacy group to which a good number of Presbyterian pastors and some church members belong and are in good standing. Thus, how easily it is to advocate being a good Democrat and promoting and advocating the agenda of the Democratic Party as being a faithful disciple of Christ. After all, a church without spiritual depth must support social change since the Lord himself cannot change the hearts or minds of men or women. The secular sellout is understandable, and any devout person who stands in the way is viewed with grave suspicion. James A. Glasscock Congregations who are considering leaving the PCUSA must plan carefully August 11, 2006 Recent reports of congregations wanting to separate from the PCUSA are a matter of concern because one wonders if proper planning has been carried out. The process of separating from the PCUSA is a difficult one that requires careful planning. Precipitate action should be avoided. It seems to me that a step-by-step process is necessary in which all property and legal issues are properly addressed before a decision is taken to leave the denomination. It is my hope that congregations who are considering leaving plan carefully for this event with consultation with local legal counsel. Sessions have the responsibility to see that church property is used for the greater glory of God. At the present time, there is no assurance that the PCUSA is capable of such responsibility; therefore, it is incumbent upon every session to do whatever is possible in advance to retain the administration and ownership of its property after an eventual separation. George Hill First Presbyterian Church Baton Rouge, La. PCUSA's legal opinions are un-loving, win-at-any-cost tactics August 11, 2006 This morning I had a message from a PCUSA pastor who is a friend and formerly a fellow lawyer. He suggested that, after taking my blood pressure medicine, I take a look at the legal opinion of the denomination's lawyers concerning property rights. My reply was along these lines: These legal opinions and guidelines fall under the category of un-loving, win-at-any-cost tactics that I condemned in a recent email. They also reinforce my prayer that somehow both "sides" will quit the fight and negotiate a peaceful and honorable separation. The fight, if continued, will be endless, costly and nasty. The most likely ultimate outcome will be the exodus of thousands of dissenting congregations that will leave behind thousands of church buildings – empty shells inhabited by tiny, shrinking groups of liberal Presbyterians (which the denomination's lawyers propose to call the "true church."). I have no lawyerly interest in this fight, except that it appalls me to think of the time, energy, money and trainloads of paper that will be poured down this legal rat hole over the next 20 years or so if the fight is not abandoned. Lawyers will be enriched, forests will be decimated, rancor will reign, and the Kingdom will be dishonored. Pray that, somehow, the Holy Spirit will find and inspire some grownups on both sides who will intervene and lead us all out of the wilderness by negotiating a separation. Reagan Burch Houston, Texas When conservatives stand their ground, the talk is about hierarchies and 'bishops' August 11, 2006 The irony is just too rich. If a congregation wants to further the liberal agenda, it's OK to have "scruples" and do their own thing entirely. But the moment the conservatives stand their ground, the air is full of talk about hierarchies and "bishops!" It's difficult to belong to a Christ-centered, Bible-believing, Reformed congregation and yet be yoked to a denomination with wildly diverging views. It's hard for Suzie Pewsitter to understand long delays while committees study these issues. Shall we rewrite Joshua 24:15 to say "choose for yourselves [in one or two years, after we've appointed a task force to study it] whom you will serve". Or Matthew 4:19-20: Jesus said, "Come, follow me . . ." [after forming a task force and studying the issue for a year or two] they left their nets and followed him. To be fair, there is also Scripture that tells us to wait upon the Lord. But still, I recall a fine sermon exhorting us to step out boldly in faith, and trust that the Lord will provide. If that's good advice for our personal lives, why doesn't it apply as well to church governing matters? Susan Rumble, member First Presbyterian Church Wenatchee, Wash. Louisville: True church is where even a minority agrees with apostasy August 11, 2006 Really, how confidential can these documents be if they are available for download from the PLC? These strategy pointers, the actions of Eastern Oklahoma, Iowa, et al are more and more reminiscent of watching a wounded animal thrash around. Have you ever seen that? It is a pitiable sight. The animal (in the case perhaps a serpent) is wounded and it simply goes into paroxysms of defensive snapping and biting. Often times biting at itself. That is what the entrenched bureaucracy in Louisville is starting to resemble. Is this really the "new way of being the church" that was touted so proudly after Birmingham? Has the progressive Louisville elite actually redefined the "true church?" Having read their documents, it seems clear that the new definition is simply "the true church is found where even a minority agrees with apostasy and heretical practice." Thanks, but no thanks. I think I'll stick with the original definition which tells us that where the Word is properly preached and the sacraments correctly-administered, there exists the true church. The arrogance of the legal staff is breathtaking – but unsurprising. I hope the last person out of the tent turns out the lights. Rev. Jim Yearsley Tampa Fla. Churches leaving PCUSA proclaim there are still those who will not bow to Baal August 11, 2006 Jeremiah, speaking of the backslidden nation of Israel, says, "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. The wise man shall be put to shame; they shall be dismayed and taken; behold they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them? ... everyone is greedy for unjust gain; from prophet to priest, everyone deals falsely. They have healed the wound of my people lightly, saying 'Peace, peace,' when there is no peace. Were they ashamed when they committed abomination? No, they were not at all ashamed; they did not know how to blush." (Jeremiah 8:8-12) As I read this passage, I could not help but recognize the situation of the PCUSA. The "wise" leaders of the denomination have rejected God's word as an authority over them, picking and choosing the passages that support their agenda, and thumbing their noses at anything that contradicts the spirit of this age. The PU report (it can hardly claim purity as one of its foundations) was an attempt at peace and unity in name only. It declares peace, when there is no peace. And the swift viciousness with which the denomination has moved to gain the upper hand in property disputes should be cause for shame to even the most vehement supporter of the liberal and unBiblical agenda – yet they don't seem to know how to blush. As a former member of the PCUSA and one who credits his salvation to the ministry contained therein, it grieves me to see the depths to which this denomination has sunk. I don't envy you the situation you are now in, and yet, I believe with all my heart that God can and will be glorified in it. Every church that walks away from the denomination to stand on Biblical convictions proclaims to the world that there are still those who will not bow their knee to Baal. Every pastor or session persecuted by presbyteries and the national administration, highlights the hypocrisy of those who falsely claim to believe in inclusiveness and grace. Every congregation robbed of its building testifies to the undeniable truth that Christians are but sojourners in this land and ultimately look in hope to an inheritance that cannot be touched by thieves. Know that my prayers are with you in your struggle to stay faithful to the witness God has called you to. It is not schismatic to separate from those who have ceased to acknowledge the lordship of Christ. I believe that if you stand together and follow your convictions, that the denomination will be unable to steal and extort your buildings from you. But you must ask yourselves what is more important – your building or your uncompromised testimony? If you are unwilling to give up everything for the sake of the gospel, then turn back now; you have no business pretending to be a faithful remnant. Stay and play at being a church with those who are a little bit further down the road of apostasy, because you are on it as well. But my hope is that you will put your hand to the plow to follow our Lord, knowing that he has promised that everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for his name's sake, will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life. Thomas Mirabella M. Div, Covenant Theological Seminary Harrisonburg, Va. PCUSA is out 'fundamentalist'-ing the fundamentalists August 11, 2006 Who can really disagree with Rev. Pehrson's call [letter to the editor, posted August 10, 2006] for less inflammatory rhetoric and the like? The problem is, we have seen presbyteries and sessions acting in clear defia |