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| March
2006 letters Archives of letters to the editor  |
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| 'Why
are we, as Presbyterians, members of the WCC?' March 30, 2006 I recently saw an article in the Honolulu Advertiser concerning the World Council of Churches' position on the Iraq war. They stated that the United States was raining terror down on the Iraqi people, the war was unjust, we were killing innocent people, etc. They also stated that the Presbyterian Church (USA) was part of the World Council. This article brought back some memories that I hadn't thought about in a long time. About 35 years ago, while I was a POW in North Vietnam, I was called out to what we called "A Quiz." These were sessions with our captors that usually weren't very pleasant. They would come into your cell, tie your hands behind your back, blindfold you and then on the way from your cell to the quiz room they would make sure that you ran into a few walls and missed some steps here and there. Once in the quiz room, your blindfold was removed, you sat on a stool and a V officer who could speak fair English would start the "discussion." This particular day it started with the friendly approach. After some one-sided talk, he asked if I were a Christian. I said yes. He then asked what denomination? I said Presbyterian. He then shoved a newspaper clipping across the table. I forget the newspaper, but we mostly saw the New York Times, Washington Post and the Los Angeles Times. (Guess what, we never saw pro-war articles.) In the article, the World Council of Churches had stated that the Americans were raining terror from the skies killing innocent women, children and old folks, and that we were criminals fighting an unjust and immoral war. (We had been listening to the exact same words from our captors for several years.) The quiz lasted for about another hour and it was not very friendly. It took several days to recover from that "discussion." The World Council made many anti-war statements during the Vietnam War. My wife, Carole, wrote them letters, both representing herself and as chairman of the National League of Families, none of which they answered. My question is this: If the majority of the Presbyterians don't support the views of the World Council of Churches, why are we, as Presbyterians, members of the WCC? In my opinion, the WCC is hurting our country. Because of the WCC, I was beaten. I guarantee you that if we had POWs today, they would see this latest article reporting the anti-military statements of the WCC. Why do we allow them to use our name? Why do we fund them? Jim Hickerson Rogers put culture ahead of the Bible March 30, 2006 Richard McClendon [letter to the editor, posted March 28, 2006] is absolutely correct when he says that "seminaries are part of the problem." All one has to do is read the March 24th article on Jack Rogers' recent book. Jack's book, Jesus, the Bible and Homosexuality condones homosexuality and is endorsed by an interesting group of pastors, professors and others closely connected to the LGBT movement. Being published by the Presbyterian Publishing Corporation adds little credibility. Robert Bohl is chairman of this publishing organization and comes from a long line of very liberal General Assembly moderators. Jack is a former G.A. moderator and seminary professor. Minister friends tell me that at one time Jack was an evangelical and respected theologian, as the article states. Unfortunately, he put culture ahead of the Bible and became very progressive (?) in his thinking. Also unfortunately, there are many seminary professors of the same stripe. The result is a large number of pastors who are not grounded in Scripture and who strive to follow the world's culture. The PCUSA and other mainline denominations are struggling with what they truly believe; much of it not Biblical. Pluralism, sexual immorality, political correctness, etc., are being condoned as acceptable expressions of our faith. We have learned little from Christ's admonition to the church at Laodicea. We stand on the verge of being "spit from his mouth." Jack, as a former evangelical, you have lost your first love and must recognize the implication of this. God is patient, but he is not a patsy. Sorry, Jack, think I will pass on reading this one. When I read fiction, I prefer mysteries. Bill Arthur Greenville, S.C. Jensen is received as a member of the church and left to wallow in unbelief March 30, 2006 Jim Rigby says that Dr. Jensen has pledged to follow the core teachings of Jesus, but I believe Dr. Jensen has deceived Rigby or Rigby isn't aware of one of the core teaching of Jesus in Matthew 28:19-20.
This is so wrong on so many levels that it is nearly impossible to know where to begin or what to say. It would have been better for the church to tell Jensen that he was welcome at their worship services, but that membership in the church would not be fair either to him or the church. This would have afforded the opportunity for the church to minister to Jensen and for him to decide if he really wanted to be part of a fellowship whose views depart so radically from his own. Instead, he is received as a member and is left to wallow in unbelief. But perhaps the views of Jensen and the congregation that received him as a member are not that divergent. If so, may God have mercy on both him and the congregation and upon us all. Mike Sorocak, elder Westminster Presbyterian Church Mobile, Ala. Action is contrary to our Constitution and the very nature of faith March 30, 2006 I thought you'd like to see how we are working in Mission Presbytery to stop this apostasy in our midst.
First Presbyterian Church Cuero, Texas Happy that COM will look into latest example of apostasy infecting PCUSA March 30, 2006 I am heartened that, at the least, the COM will take the time to examine events and circumstances of this latest example of rampant apostasy infecting our denomination. At a bare minimum, they should dismiss the sitting session, assume original jurisdiction over St. Andrews, exclude this atheist and suspend Mr. Rigby. Of course, how likely any of those things are is really questionable in the church of "what's happenin' now." Rev. James C. Yearsley Tampa, Fla. Overturn the Spahr decision March 28, 2006 The Presbyterian system is reaping the results of its "lukewarm theological" claiming of its Reformed roots founded in a structure firmly based on Scripture; but, rather relying on pseudo-intellectual and sociological/political appeasements which have at best diluted its spiritual leadership and place in the world. The handwriting was being written on the ecclesiastical walls of many so-called "prophetic" voices that would deny the prophetic voice of the majority. By condescending to the lowest common denominator, the church has resultantly claimed its identity as a "political correct-seeking social agency" rather than a fellowship of confessing Christians who are unabashed in declaring their Savior to be Jesus Christ. "Structure binds anxiety" and gives creative and constructive culmination to its centered faith; however, without that creative structure, anarchy reigns and the life of the church becomes not Christ centered, but becomes the idiosyncratic needs and desires of each person for total approval over the historic tenets of the church. Such a change in directions will ultimately lead to a splintering of the church before known as the Presbyterian Church (USA). I will pray that the GA will hear a prophetic claim to reclaim our historic church, and in the process will demand the decision rendered in the Spahr case to be overturned. It is an affront to the historic church that the decision rendered as being of "no offense" and acted "within her right of conscience" was ever entertained by that investigating committee. For the church at large to accept this obfuscation of The Book of Confession and the Book of Order would be for many the last straw. Rev. Gilbert J. Fitzsimmons, Ph.D. Knoxville United Church Pittsburgh, Pa. Say goodbye to Kirkpatrick March 28, 2006 Clifton Kirkpatrick needs to be run out of office in the PCUSA. He is against everything this country was founded upon. If he hates America and capitalism, let him move to France and ruin that country as he is trying to do to this one with his liberal biases and misinterpretations of Holy Scripture. Jim Wyche, former PCUSA minister Some other problems March 28, 2006 While I agree with Brother Arthur's point, I would suggest that "denominationalism" and "seminaries" are part of the problem. Richard McClendon, elder Left is trying to create separation March 28, 2006 As a concerned member of the PCUSA residing in Ohio, I would like to endorse the stated position of the Presbyterian Coalition on the Spahr verdict. It seems clear that elements of the PCUSA are doing everything they can to create a split in the denomination while they attempt to blame the conservative elements of the church for the tension. The overwhelming majority of the PCUSA membership have no doubts as to who is trying to create a separation in the denomination and property rights won't change that perception. Ronald Everett What's a 'committed bisexual?' March 28, 2006 The brochure says Rogers takes "on the most divisive issue today" and "argues unequivocally for the ordination and marriage of people who are lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender." What's the definition of a commited bisexual? Brenda Winter Luverne, Minn. How to handle sexual sin March 28, 2006 While in one sense all sin is equally heinous, we must admit that not all sins are equally grave. How should we handle those who claim to be Christians and live in sexual sin? Paul wrote that we should excommunicate such a person in order that the person's flesh may be destroyed and may be saved on the last day (I Cor. 5). Paul also says we should not associate with people who live in sexual sin and lay hold to the name of Christ. That would definitely make dialogue a tad difficult, let alone holding meetings within the PCUSA. Geoff Robinson Haddon Heights, N.J. Standing still is the real danger March 28, 2006 In response to Sarah Norman's reply, isn't it dangerous not to have papers on the cornerstone doctrines of our faith? From my point of view, part of our problem is that we have lost the ability to speak about our faith. We have reduced our language to that which will fit on a bumper sticker or bracelet. The Trinity paper is laid out clearly and convincingly. It points to the relationship that the Godhead desires with all of humanity. Perhaps we should spend more time discussing our faith with one another and going out and putting it into action in the world rather than arguing. The Trinity paper is a "dangerous toehold," but isn't it more dangerous not to take the step? Karen Wagner It amazes me that many pastors can turn their back on God's Word March 24, 2006 Bless you, San Diego Presbytery, for taking a tough stand against recommendation 5 of the PUP report. Were more Presbyteries willing to do the same. I have been against this recommendation from the start but am beginning to see some positive aspects of it. There is a chance that it will be the catalyst for reform and result in a needed backlash among complacent pew sitters. Hopefully, God will not let the mainline denominations continue to slide any farther into apostasy. Thankfully, he is in control and, despite our mortal frailties, his Will will be done. However, it still amazes me that many seminary-trained pastors can turn their back on God's recorded Word or try to change certain parts of it. Revelation cautions us not to add or take away from the Word. I for one would not want to miss spending eternity with Christ by editing the Word. More blessings to pastors who remain true to the Word of God. Blessings also to The Layman for holding the PCUSA accountable. It hasn't been easy but the rewards will be abundant. Please continue in prayer for wisdom for the GA commissioners. Bill Arthur Greenville, S.C. God does not want us to overcome enmity at the expense of truth March 24, 2006 Rev. Bob McQuilkin [letter to the editor, posted March 21, 2006] writes: "If you begin with the assumption that there can be no dialogue on these issues – that those who see the possibility of a faithful gay union as ones who are ignoring God's Word – then you close the door to the 'inspiration of the Holy Spirit.'" This statement implies that new revelations of the Spirit that modify the teachings of Scripture are permitted. Such revelations are specifically proscribed in the Westminster Confession in Chapter 1, Paragraph 6. "We can yet learn from one another in these contentious times, and be an expression of God's good purpose to overcome enmity among us." Yes, we can learn from one another to the extent that the Spirit faithfully bears witness to the truth of Scripture through us. Enmity comes from our failure to be instruments of the Spirit in bearing faithful witness to the Word of God. I do not believe that God wants us to overcome enmity at the expense of truth, however. "None of us can claim 'obedience to the Scriptures' in our lives. Sin abounds in our lives, and we can pray for the humility to acknowledge that – while we may not understand same-sex commitments – they stand alongside other 'sins' that include divorce, failure to love enemies, lust for power and money, our propensity to seek revenge. I concur with Rev. McQuilkin in identifying same-sex commitments as sinful. Yes, all of us are guilty of sin daily. And daily we should confess our sins, repent of them and give thanks to God for the forgiveness graciously bestowed upon us through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Those advocating for change, however, seem to want to reclassify committed same-sex relationships from the category of sin to a category of those things pleasing to God and blessed by God. I believe that position to be contrary to the teaching of Scripture. Doug Coartney, elder Eureka, Ill. Though arguments are clear in Trinity paper, it's a dangerous toehold March 24, 2006 Re: God's overflowing love Gosh, don'cha think that they would have more pressing issues to use the paper for? Like, "Our Denomination Is Facing Implosion," or "Whether Professors or Preachers Are Best Able to Chart a Sound Course for Faith?" While the arguments might be laid out clearly, and almost convincingly, it's a dangerous toehold for those whose next step will be to waver on the divinity of Christ himself. Sarah Norman No other sinners are banding together to make their 'sin' acceptable March 24, 2006 Re: Bob McQuilkin's letter to the editor, posted March 21, 2006 From my perspective, when same-sex issues are compared to other sins, I must always bring to the forefront that other sinners are not banding together in a unified attack to make their "sin" acceptable. You don't find murderers unified to promote free murders without penalty, divorced men or women unified to eliminate marriage, etc. Yes, we are all sinners and the difference is that we acknowledge our sins and repent. The same-sex proponents are unified in trying to change laws and the minds of the faithful to gain acceptance for their sin. This is the difference between homosexuals and other sins. They do not stand alongside any sin. They stand alone, just like those who want us to think that murdering unborn children is acceptable to God. The only inspiration in the same-sex issues is from the devil himself. Richard Conway, elder First Presbyterian Morganton, N.C. Troubled by the blind support of Palestine from some PCUSA missionaries March 24, 2006 As a Presbyterian, I'm highly troubled by the blind, emotional support of Palestine that some Presbyterian missionaries have espoused. They're too young to remember the 1972 Olympics. We've been asked to write our congressmen etc to bring down the wall. This is total madness. We've heard missionaries talk with great anger about how Palestinians have been inconvenienced by check points while completely ignoring the terror caused by the Palestinians. We've heard them refer to Yassir Arafat as if he was a decent and normal functioning leader. We've heard them say that Christian churches in Palestine are under no duress from the Muslim leaders. I think that is mostly untrue. Yet highly educated Presbyterians follow their lead. Sad. The real enemy now is the "Christian right." That is the perception that we get from some of the Presbyterian leadership. How did we come to this? How can we turn back to reason? Bob Howard Letter is example fuzzy-minded rationalization that got us into this mess March 24, 2006 I find Bob McQuilkin's letter [letter to the editor, posted March 21, 2006] a wonderful example of the lack of leadership and fuzzy-minded rationalization that got us in the mess we are now in. He is perfectly correct in his statement that none of us is perfect (although I believe Paul said it first and best). But far too many of Mr. MacQuilkin's ilk of the mid to late 20th century decided that our fallibility was sufficient grounds to abdicate responsibility. "Oh my, it's just one more sin among many – how can we condemn it?" seems to have been the watchword. The more faithful question is, "How could you not?" Rev. Jim Yearsley Tampa, Fla. Faithful people seek forgiveness through repentance in obedience to Scripture March 24, 2006 Let's make it clear again. Bob McQuilkin [letter to the editor, posted March 21, 2006] states that none of us can claim "obedience to the Scriptures" in our lives, so we should all just get along, letting our lack of understanding of "same-sex commitments" be an opportunity for humility. Their sins, Mr. McQuilkin claims, are no worse than any others to which we are all prone. With that much I can agree. But that does not let same-sex practitioners off the hook, especially when it comes to seeking leadership positions within the church. "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?" (Romans 6:1-3) Living in obedience to the Scriptures does not mean that we will always and everywhere behave as the perfect image of the Son, who gave himself for us so that we might have forgiveness and life. It means that we will fully recognize that while we have been (are being) made new as God's adopted children, we often fail our Lord by what we do and leave undone. Even so, he is faithful, just and gracious to forgive us our sins, setting our feet on the path once more, when we repent and confess those sins (1 John 1:9). True people of faith seek forgiveness through repentance in obedience to the Scriptures and the Lord who gave them to us. Michael R. Warner The Presbyterian Church of Islip, NY PUP's report is a stealth tactic March 21, 2006 Am I to understand from this article that approval of the Theological Task Force's recommendations for presbytery and denominational discretion on G.6-0106b would circumvent the requirement of ratification by a vote of all presbyteries? If so, this is a stealth tactic and is clearly contrary to the majority of opinion in "flyover" presbyteries. It is my understanding that every time the issue of repeal of G.6 has been referred to the presbyteries for a vote, it has been turned down by a huge margin. This is another example of how the leadership of our beloved denomination has been hijacked and will lead to its demise. Mike Urton None of us can claim 'obedience to the Scriptures' in our lives March 21, 2006 The PUP study has asked the church to consider – case by case – the issues involved in controversial matters, to determine whether the "essentials" of faith have been violated. If you begin with the assumption that there can be no dialogue on these issues – that those who see the possibility of a faithful gay union as ones who are ignoring God's Word – then you close the door to the "inspiration of the Holy Spirit." We can yet learn from one another in these contentious times, and be an expression of God's good purpose to overcome enmity among us. None of us can claim "obedience to the Scriptures" in our lives. Sin abounds in our lives, and we can pray for the humility to acknowledge that – while we may not understand same-sex commitments – they stand alongside other "sins" which include divorce, failure to love enemies, lust for power and money, our propensity to seek revenge. Bob McQuilkin, retired pastor Beulah, Mich. 'Splendid and thoughtful proposal' March 21, 2006 Re: Presbytery wants several votes by GA on PUP report This is a splendid and thoughtful proposal which I hope will be followed. Walter B. Funk Charleston, W.Va. How much of PCUSA's budget is spent on political causes? March 21, 2006 How do we get a complete/detailed budget for the PCUSA? How much does it spend on lobbying, political causes, etc. What is the current amount of assets in the Presbyterian Foundation Fund? How much do they earn in interest? How do they spend these millions perhaps billions of dollars? How much for political causes? Bonnie Dailey Budgets are published in the annual minutes of the General Assembly. However, they do not include all of the details the letter writer seeks. The editors. Explanation of relevance of Revelation to holy living is powerful March 21, 2006 Preachers sometimes "go off the deep end" in preaching on Revelation, emphasizing and conjecturing about the meanings of the prophecies. Rev. Henkel's [letter to the editor, posted March 17, 2006] third paragraph explaining the relevance of Revelation to holy living taught throughout the Bible, is quite powerful regardless of how one interprets the specific prophecies. Preachers apply the admonition to not take from or add to the book, meaning the Bible. It was troubling, as it appeared a stretch to apply the warning to all of Scripture. But Rev. Henkel's letter ties that warning to the rest of the Bible in such a clear way. Jim Logan We should be concerned with reaching greater numbers of people all the time March 21, 2006 Nick Lincoln [letter to the editor, posted March 17, 2006] seeks to discredit Dr. Brown's letter on membership loss by implying that the comparison with the Southern Baptist Convention is faulty. He cites some Baptists saying that the rolls there are inflated by a third, and that there is "no accountable bureaucratic structure to enforce the maintenance of clean rolls." He also reports that SBC adult baptisms are down. Now to the true comparison. PCUSA rolls are inflated. I know of many churches with over 2,000 on their rolls with only hundreds attending. The same is surely true in many smaller churches. As to our "accountable bureaucratic structure" (much could be written on the irony of that phrase), we have a constitution, but little or no enforcement of cleaning rolls. And as to baptisms, has Mr. Lincoln looked at our statistics – adult and infant? I would expect him to, perhaps, argue also that numbers are not all that important in the first place. While I agree that true Christian growth is more important, raw numbers are, too. Each digit represents an eternal soul. We should be concerned with reaching greater numbers of people all the time. After all, the first records of the Christian Church report that 3,000 became believers on Pentecost. Dr. Tom Gray, pastor Kirk of the Hills, Presbyterian Tulsa, Okla. Why no support for Coalition statement? March 21, 2006 In looking over your Layman Online I note that The Layman has chosen not to publish the recent press release of the Coalition Board regarding the Redwoods PJY decision. As a signer of the statement I believe it walks within the boundaries of the orthodox church and your own presuppositions. I would be interested in hearing the reasons developed to support your non-publication. G. David Lambertson The Layman Online provided a link to the Coalition Web site shortly after the statement was posted. A second story also linked to the statement. The editors. Louisville staff bore like termites into the processes of decision-making at GA March 17, 2006 I was a commissioner to the 1991 203rd General Assembly in Baltimore – which dealt with the infamous "Justice-Love" report. I sat on the Human Sexuality Committee that considered the notorious report. I can testify first-hand to the undue influence of Louisville staff members who attend the assemblies in droves, boring like termites into the processes of decision-making. Staff members use their positions to bring about decisions that will keep the denomination listing to the political, cultural and religious left. It is no surprise to me to hear that staff ideologues have managed to do it again in the 217th Assembly – with two long early seminars carefully scripted to tilt the outcome of two hugely important votes. May all fair-minded commissioners fight against our deceitful PCUSA political apparatus, resist the shills, and vote for what is Biblical and right in Birmingham. William J. Martin, pastor Northeast Presbyterian Church St. Petersburg, Fla. Redwoods Presbytery decision is schismatic because it rejects the faith March 17, 2006 Sisters and brothers, I agree completely with the alarm with which you view the Redwoods Presbytery decision. It is schismatic because it rejects the faith we say we share and the obedience which comes from that faith. As the Barmen Declaration said about the ideology of the "German-Christians," the basis of our life together is being "rendered ineffective by alien principles." And if these alien principles, hostile to what we believe, become dominant, then "the church ceases to be the church," and the PCUSA becomes merely a social welfare organization – and a not very effective one, at that. Daniel C. Reuter, temporary supply Brown County Presbyterian Fellowship Nashville, Ind. Spahr decision is based on a literal interpretation of the Book of Order March 17, 2006 Your reporting of the Spahr decision as being schismatic is as if you thought "schismatic" was a bad thing. Yet The Layman is clearly schismatic and in favor of splitting the PCUSA. The Spahr decision is based on a literal interpretation of the Book of Order and its Authoritative Interpretation. Under current law, the only way for a presbytery to enforce a ban on same sex marriage ceremonies is through a local interpretation and enforcement of the Book of Order. Basing such a position on the Scriptures also requires discretionary authority as to which parts of Scripture to selectively enforce and which to ignore. Yet The Layman is clearly against presbyteries having such local discretionary authority and clearly supports a literal interpretation of the Book of Order. It seems The Layman is both for and against "local option," for and against the use of Scriptures and the Book of Order, and both for and against schism. The only consistent message we are getting from The Layman is that it is anti-PCUSA and anti-gay. Why is that the bottom line? Ritchie Jones Los Angeles, Calif. Approval of PUP report will divide confessing, evangelical believers from PCUSA March 17, 2006 During my congregation's 8:15 a.m. worship service on Sunday, I read the final "Amen!" in Revelation. It concluded a verse by verse exposition of John's record of all that he heard and saw on that Lord's day. The apostle closes with the admonition not to add to or take away from "the words of the book of this prophecy" (Revelation 22:18-19). My personal belief is that this warning applies to the whole of Scripture (Deuteronomy 4:2, 12:32; Proverbs 30:5-6). This view strengthens the observations I wish to make here, but it is not essential to them. Revelation is clear, in and of itself, when it echoes the assessment expressed at other places in the Bible: That Jesus is the "Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end," the supreme Sovereign and Judge over all humanity and all creation (Revelation 22:13, 19:11-16); and that any who engage in sexual immorality are judged by the Ruling Lord Jesus Christ as unworthy to be included in God's eternal kingdom (Revelation 22:15, 21:8, 9:21, 2:14, 2:20-22). Yet, the Presbyterian Church (USA) preaches a gospel of inclusion. We take away from the "words of the Book" the admonition to believe on Christ Jesus alone for salvation, along with the prohibition against sexual sin. Then, we add to the "words of the Book" a welcome and an acceptance and even a blessing of both the unbeliever and the sinner, along with their lifestyles. The ruling made by the Presbytery of the Redwoods regarding Jane Sphar and Robert Jensen's advocacy for "Christian" atheism demonstrate that there is little fear of the Lord in our denomination and, therefore, little wisdom (Psalm 111:10). We, as a community, have no trepidation that God will keep the word spoken in Scripture even when we do not. The promise of God is that, should we persist in our sin and our unbelief – our adding to and subtracting from Revelation, all the plagues detailed in "the words of the prophecy of this book" are going to be added to us (Revelation 22:19). The assurance of God is that we will be denied access to the tree of life and to the new Jerusalem on that day when it "comes down out of heaven" (Revelation 22:18, 21:2). Hear the word of the Lord Jesus Christ: "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what that one has done" (Revelation 22:12). The commissioners to the 217th General Assembly need to understand that, as they deliberate and take action on the report of the Theological Task Force on Peace, Unity and Purity of the Church (TTF), I believe that my personal share of the inheritance which I am promised in Christ Jesus is at stake in my response to their decision. When they chose to concur with the TTF report, I will be forced to a decision point of my own. The commissioners need also to know that I am not alone in facing this dilemma. There are hundreds (perhaps thousands) of individual local church clergy and laity who are completely convinced that Jesus Christ the Judge will hold them each one personally accountable for their response to the action of the 217th General Assembly. More, there are dozens (perhaps hundreds) of instances in which such individuals comprise the overwhelming majority of a particular congregation's leadership and membership. Any who think that the fear of losing the buildings and funds accrued in this present life as a loyal Presbyterian is greater than the threat of forfeiting an inheritance in all the treasures of an eternity spent in God's kingdom need to think again. Commissioners, worry not that your brother and sister Presbyterians will vote with their feet. Know with certainty that they will follow their hearts. Whoever has a heart set on heaven will not long remain in a denomination that fashions itself a safe haven for pursuing the faithless and sinful lusts of earth. A vote to approve the TTF report is a vote to divide confessing, evangelical believers from the Presbyterian Church (USA). In the wake of their exodus, our denomination will be left to rebuild on foundations laid by "real Christians" like Jane Spahr and Robert Jensen. The structure raised up on those foundations may be grand and worldly worthy, a true wonder to behold; but it will never be more than a synagogue of Satan (Revelation 2:9, 3:9). Jim Henkel, NWI endorsing church pastor North Benton Presbyterian Church North Benton, Ohio Eastminster Presbytery Glad for overture on incorporating Biblical teaching in human sexuality resources March 17, 2006 Glad for [the Presbytery of Shenango's] overture to the General Assembly. And glad to have been a member of the presbytery while serving Calvin United Presbyterian Church in Ellwood City, Pa. They have a splendid leader in David Dawson, their executive presbyter. Walter Funk Membership statistics aren't the most important indicator of denominational strength March 17, 2006 I remain somewhat doubtful about the Rev. Dr. Brown's assessment [letter to the editor, posted March 14, 2006] of the membership statistics of the Southern Baptist Convention. Certain church leaders admit those statistics are inflated by at least a third. Add to that the lack of an accountable bureaucratic structure to enforce the maintenance of clean rolls and those growth statistics are somewhat suspect. The stagnation of membership growth in the Southern Baptist Church has been discussed in recent conventions and at the latest Convention the SBC reported that overall baptisms were down between 2003-2005. This does not imply that the SBC is facing the same membership crisis as the PCUSA. However, it does give caution to those who would use membership statistics as the most important indicator of denominational strength. Nick Lincoln Richmond, Va. Do not believe yourself prophetic for taking 'controversial' stand with no costs March 17, 2006 Robert Jensen has indeed gotten what he desired – attention. He may get some other self-begotten benefits out of playing the game of claiming a name while redefining what that name means. He is not unique in this. It has a long pedigree in a world filled with sinners. Christianity, in particular, attracts those who would deny its essential tenets and yet would wish to claim its supposed "teachings" or supposed moral tenor. Christianity, even if it outwardly rejects them or rebukes them, will no longer burn them at the stake or otherwise torture or kill them. It used to cost something to be a heretic, but the Church came to believe it cost her more to destroy them. That does not mean, however, that we should ignore them or let them conduct their charades within the life of our churches. Again, St. Andrew's Presbyterian Church in Austin and its pastor, Dr. Jim Rigsby, should be disciplined by Mission Presbytery, and if Mission Presbytery is unwilling, then the Synod of the Sun should act. If the synod also fails to discipline, then the General Assembly PJC and/or the General Assembly should. I understand that some have sympathy for the ideas that salvation may be universal and may be obtainable in a Pelagian fashion. I understand that some do not believe that Jesus could have really meant to call monogamously committed same-sex partners sinners or to withhold the blessings of marriage from them. The bulk of the Presbyterian Church does not. Have the courage of your convictions and willingly seek a disciplinary trial. Conduct the trial without sophistry or semantical twisting of the plain meanings of the Confessions and rules of order for worship, ordination and membership. Accept the punishment that is handed down, no matter how severe. If you believe yourselves right and truly following Jesus, take up the cross of discipline laid down by the unenlightened and ignorant. Do not, however, believe yourself prophetic or clever for taking a "controversial" stand with no costs. Come on, Mission Presbytery and Presbytery of the Redwoods and the Synod of the Northeast and Baltimore Presbytery. Do not play with the polity. Follow it or repudiate it, even if it costs you your property or a great deal of financial support or connections to national structures. I fear that will not happen. If the PUP task force recommendations pass, there will be even less incentive for churches and presbyteries to follow the polity even though its words will still hypothetically exist and have binding force. If some of us, following the leading of these "great prophets," seek to do what is right in our own eyes about pulling out of an apostate denomination, we shall see if the prophets become sticklers for the law. In any event, if the situation comes to call for it, I hope that evangelicals will have the courage to act. If we must pay a price, so be it. But in light of the liberals own actions, there should be no penalties for following our consciences, right? Rev. Scott Mackey Highland Presbyterian Church Tyler, Texas What the presbytery forgot March 17, 2006 New Hope Presbytery forgot that moral suasion cannot come from an organization which will not define its essential tenets. Ron Lane Lilburn, Ga. How can PCUSA let Spahr decision stand and still be Christian church? March 17, 2006 How in the name of all that is holy, can PCUSA let the Spahr decision stand, and still claim to be a Christian church? Pete Simpson Bloomington, Minn. It is pointless to say that anyone can be a Christian atheist March 17, 2006 Re: Member of More Light congregation admits that he doesn't believe in God Some people say they are Santa Clause or Napoleon ... and they really think they are. This is the same thing. The big problem is that a mainline denomination accepted him into the church. When a person wants to join a church, the first thing the preacher is supposed to ask is if they believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who died on the cross for their sins, as their Savior and Lord, hence the name "Christian." It is pointless to say that anyone can be a Christian atheist. There are at least three pre-requisites to being a Christian:
Glenda Smith, elder Reems Creek Beech Weaverville, N.C. It's a farce: Accepting as a member someone who doesn't believe in God March 14, 2006 I was appalled to read the op-ed piece by Robert Jensen in the Houston Chronicle Sunday. Robert Jensen is well-known in Texas as a liberal anti-war activist professor of journalism at UT-Austin who has a reputation for outrageous statements and behavior. It looks like Rev. Jim Rigby, the pastor of St. Andrews Presbyterian Church in Austin which accepted Jensen as a member, is colluding with him to get more controversy stirred up and put Rigby in the center of a "show trial" in the church. Non-believers attend my church (and most churches), often accompanying their spouses or family members, and should be welcomed into the life of the church in the hope the Holy Spirit will bring them to belief. But it is a farce and perversion of the Book of Order to accept as a member someone who publicly states:
Rev. Rigby and the session of this church should be charged with deliberately ignoring the membership requirements of the Book of Order. If they don't want to follow it, then Rigby should have the integrity to resign his ordination and the session should ask for this congregation's dismissal from the PCUSA. Jody Harrington, elder and director of Christian Education Southminster Presbyterian Church Missouri City, Texas Column about disbelief Christianity ran elsewhere, too March 14, 2006 Someone forwarded me a link to your site, and I see that you have written about the column I wrote. I just wanted to point out that the piece has appeared in two newspapers: http://chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/3717520.html http://www.annistonstar.com/opinion/2006/as-insight-0308-0-6c07t1336.htm and other websites: http://www.alternet.org/story/33236/ http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Mar06/Jensen07.htm http://www.counterpunch.org/jensen03072006.html The Palestine Chronicle also picked it up, but it wasn't written for that site. I've been getting a lot of email about the piece. It seems to have sparked some good conversations. The comment link on the Alternet site has nearly 300 comments so far. Bob Jensen No ordination without representation March 14, 2006 As I reflect on what is happening in the PCUSA regarding the report of the task force on Peace, Unity and Purity (PUP) and the possibilities of its passage at the General Assembly meeting this summer, I am reminded of our own history as a nation. In the mid-1700s, the British Parliament began taxing tea in the American Colonies, yet the colonist's had no representation on Parliament and therefore no voice about these taxes. Through these actions, they were forced to participate in something for which they had no say. The frustration of the colonists in regards to these taxes and other issues led directly to an act of protest, the Boston Tea party in 1773, and eventually to the Revolutionary War and their freedom from British rule. The rallying slogan for the colonists during this time was "No Taxation Without Representation." This history is eerily reminiscent of what I see happening in our denomination with the PUP report. A select group of 20 people has now made a series of recommendations to the General Assembly (GA) on how to handle the issues that are dividing us as a denomination. One of these recommendations (#5), through Authoritative Interpretation, would change the procedures and standards of ordination for our entire denomination. It is not a change to the constitution itself, which would require a 2/3 vote of the General Assembly and ratification by a majority of presbyteries, rather it would only be a de facto change to the constitution through Authoritative Interpretation which only requires a simple majority of those gathered for the GA. In this way, it would be a change to the application of the constitution without requiring the same level of scrutiny and without the normally required "voice of the church" through ratification by a majority of the presbyteries. I think this maneuver, which would allow a constitutional change to occur without allowing the greater voice of the church to vote on it, is rubbing so many people in our denomination the wrong way because we have seen it before in our history. Just as the colonists decried their version of "Taxation without Representation," we today cannot be silent in this attempt to bring about "Ordination without Representation." This is the reason the PUP report has caused such a stir and it is the reason we must urge the GA not to accept these recommendations. If it is the will of the people that the ordination procedures and standards for our denomination should be changed, then we should go through the constitutional process. But, if it is not the will of the body (as it is not, since it has been voted down three times in ever increasing margins) then we should not go around the process and the people by using an Authoritative Interpretation as a way of thwarting the expressed will of the people. It seems underhanded, unfair and will inevitably (whether we want it or not) lead to the same type of revolution in our denomination that we saw in our own history. I am urging everyone, whether you are for or against the ordination of practicing homosexuals, to say "no" to the PUP recommendations for the good of the denomination. Please say no to "Ordination without Representation." Rev. John E. Bower III Hasson Heights Presbyterian Oil City, Pa. |
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