November 2006 letters, page 2 Archives of letters to the editor

A ruling against conservatives will motivate them to finance departures November 20, 2006 This is a good development, in that it will finally bring resolution to all of these issues. Every Confessing Church session must pass resolutions asking their presbytery to adopt and adhere to the ordination standards of the Confessing Church Movement. The more presbyteries that pass these resolutions, and we should get 100 presbyteries to pass it, the better our leverage within the denomination as well as in secular courts. The presbyteries need to see about getting injunctions against the synods. One does have to wonder about this so-called trust arrangement. The grantor's would be the original individual congregations and presbyteries. Their intent was to establish a traditional, orthodox, reformed Christian Church. Those who have usurped the positions of power in Louisville are liberal Unitarians who do not believe in sin, judgment, redemption, sanctification, etc., which is why they cannot understand why our Lord had to give his life for us, or the need for any sexual or moral code, etc. The folks in Louisville are fiduciaries (trustees) in this trust arrangement, who are intentionally undermining and circumventing the grantor's intent in this trust arrangement to establish a traditional, orthodox reformed Christian Church and, they are replacing it with a liberal Unitarian religion that carries some of the forms of Christianity but is substantively a very different religion, altogether. Should not the doctrine of "Cy Pres" come into play and require that congregations be dismissed to join denominations more in line with the original grantor's intent? It is a major area of litigation in the secular courts, as are suits against individual fiduciaries who try to undermine the grantor's intent, while administering the trust. Yes, this is a good development. They wanted a "zero sum" game and they got it. The ruling that will be made, based upon the appeal to the Permanent Judicial Council, will determine everything. A ruling against us will motivate our members to contribute more and finance our departures. The secular courts have been quite good at granting injunctions against presbyteries and synods during this process. It is too bad that the folks in Louisville have not had an authentic encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ, how much they have and will miss in this life. It is time to pray, and set some assets aside in an entity that is not directly connected to the local church, (and is therefore outside the reach of the presbytery). Be sure and read Lloyd Lunceford's book and retain a local property and trust attorney through your local bar association. The Lord is faithful, we will get through this time. John Almquist To say there are many paths to God is heresy November 16, 2006 Ms. Robbins' words were shocking, to put it mildly. "Christian by birth, a Baha'i by reason, a Taoist in spirit and a pastor in faith and vocation," is one thing. To say "... that there are many paths to God and that there is no capital "T" in truth – not even Jesus' claim to be the Way, the Life and the Truth," is, in one word, heresy. I can't believe that our denomination is even entertaining this notion or is retaining this person as a consultant. While I've no doubt she is a well meaning person, for an ordained Minister of Word and Sacrament to utter such theological nonsense is appalling. For the denomination to retain her as a consultant is unconscionable. Her heretical statements appear to be a clear violation of her ordination vows, and the Presbytery of the Pacific needs to take immediate action to strip her of her ordination. Is there any further wonder as to why the PCUSA is shrinking to the tune of roughly 85,000 members last year? Mark Johnston Overland Park, Kan. Votes shows that half of Lake Erie Presbytery does not believe the Bible November 16, 2006 The session of Westminster Presbyterian Church of Erie, Pa. overtured the Presbytery of Lake Erie in regard to compliance with section G-6.106b of the Book of Order. The overture was endorsed by five other churches in the presbytery. The overture resolution concluded with, "Therefore, any departure from the standards for ordination expressed in section G-6.0106b of the Book of Order will bar a candidate from ordination and/or installation by this governing body." On November 14, 2006, the overture was defeated by a tie vote, 40 yes, 40 no, one abstaining. This vote indicates that one half of the Lake Erie Presbytery does not believe the Bible or the Book of Order. It is time to go! Clair Lyons Member of Westminster Presbyterian Church and member of PCUSA and its predecessors for over 70 years. PJC's response is rather lame and less than credible November 16, 2006 Re: Charges against Presbyterian pastor dismissed (Nov. 15, 2006) I must confess that I do not find the decision from the Pittsburgh PJC to dismiss the charges against the Rev. Janet Edwards surprising. What I do find surprising is the defendant's use of a technicality in our legal process as her first line of defense: "It was based on the defense contention that the charges were filed four days past the deadline." Interestingly enough, this legal move comes from a confident minister who boldly and very publicly proclaimed that she "welcomed the trial" because, in her mind, she's not really guilty. Well, I suppose we'll never know now, will we? The response from the panel that "the decision does not constitute a vindication of the Rev. Edwards or any kind of decision on the issue at hand" is rather lame and less than credible, in my estimation. This decision, or perhaps, more accurately, non-decision, will have the effect of throwing another log onto the PCUSA bonfire of polity confusion. Rev. Cameron S. Smith Appomattox, Va. Prayer was written by Louisville minister November 16, 2006 In his Nov. 15 letter, William Reeves provides the content of a prayer offered by the Rev. Joe Wright to "open the new session of the Kansas Senate." For purposes of clarification, this prayer was presented on Jan. 23, 1996 to open the new session of the Kansas House, not Senate. The prayer was originally written by Rev. Bob Russell, pastor of the Southeast Christian Church in Louisville, KY. (Makes one wonder if he might have had some local organization in mind.) Ron Everett North Olmsted, Ohio Rose touched my life November 16, 2006 I will certainly miss the late Dr. Ben Rose. He has touched my life. My parents knew Dr. Rose well, and I was lucky in getting a book from my father who knew him, autographed. It was an autographed copy of T.U.L.I.P: Sermons on the Five Points of Calvinism. I will now treasure that autographed book, and a letter I have from him. Chip Freundt Homosexuality and gambling are both sins November 16, 2006 In his Nov. 15 response to the first half of my earlier essay, Earl Apel stated that I claimed that the sins of homosexuality and gambling are the same. He argued that gambling "deals with money" and averred that he fails to see how homosexual relationships equates to money. He then proceeded to make yet another apology for homosexuality. Mr. Apel's logic is flawed. I did not claim that homosexuality and gambling were the same. I said that they were both sins. They are different kinds of sin, but they are both sin, specifically sins that transgress God's laws concerning our dealings with fellow human beings. Homosexuality is an abuse of God's design for sexual intercourse as the sign and seal of the covenant of marriage and therefore a transgression of the Seventh Commandment (BoC 7.249), whereas gambling is an abuse of the financial resources which belong to God that have been entrusted into our stewardship and therefore a transgression of the Eighth Commandment (BoC 7.252). They ultimately have the same effect in that, "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. For he who said, 'Do not commit adultery,' also said, 'Do not murder.' If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law." (Jas. 2.10) Mr. Apel claims that homosexuality is simply a loving relationship between two people of the same gender. That two people of the same gender should have sex with each other does not follow from their love for one another. For example, I love my father, I love my brother, and I love the men in my Friday morning Bible study. Indeed, I am commanded by the Lord to love them (Ex. 20.12, I Jn. 4.21, Jn. 13.34). Therefore, my relationships with each of these men can be characterized as loving. However, just because I have loving relationships with these men does not therefore mean that I should engage in sexual intercourse with them. God forbid that I should do such wickedness! The only person that I may legitimately engage in sexual intercourse with is my promised bride (for whom I have kept myself for nearly 40 years), but not until after we have exchanged vows and entered into the covenant of marriage. Homosexuality (singled out here only because it is the matter of contention), alike unto adultery, divorce and fornication, is a sin because it violates the covenant of marriage. Specifically, it profanes the covenant's sign and seal, approximating God's design in a fashion that materially mocks it and thereby denies the potential inherent therein for new life. Advocates for homosexuality contend that homosexuals cannot help their situation because they were "born that way." However, this is a lie that they have bought into, for it contravenes God's law, which cannot be broken. Moreover, the homosexual lobby has yet to proffer incontrovertible evidence to substantiate their contention. "Homosexual marriage" (or its synonym, "civil union") is an offense against God, in that it founds a scornful caricature of a covenant ordained of God not upon love, as Mr. Apel would argue, but upon sin. Advocates for homosexual marriage, after all, do not argue that homosexuals should wait until they are married to "have sex." They rather seek society's approval for this act in crusading for a legal covenant to validate it. However, although the covenant of marriage validates sexual intercourse, sexual intercourse consummates the covenant. And it should be patently obvious by its very nature that homosexual intercourse can never, ever do that. Loren Golden Overland Park, Kan. Rose: A stalwart for the Reformed message November 15, 2006 While I was at Union, I had many conversations with Dr. Rose. He was a wonderful and gracious man. He was always interested in what the students were doing and thinking. He always had the twinkle in his eyes. What a stalwart for the Reformed message. He will be missed. Dr. Will Fletcher, pastor Vaughn Presbyterian Church Bentonville, Ark. Thankful some of Rose's faith 'rubbed off on me' November 15, 2006 I was very fortunate to be in a church pastored by Dr. Rose when I was in high school. He was very much an inspiration to us teen-agers. Evidently, he was a great reformer and remained faithful to our Lord up until his death. I have to credit both him and my mother that I am a Christian today. I thank God that I knew him and some of his faith rubbed off on me. What a man of God. Bill Arthur Greenville, S.C. May prayer sweep over USA so it can be called 'one nation under God' November 15, 2006 This pastor has guts. Thought you might enjoy this interesting prayer given in Kansas at the opening session of their senate. It seems prayer still upsets some people. When Minister Joe Wright was asked to open the new session of the Kansas Senate, everyone was expecting the usual generalities, but this is what they heard: "Heavenly Father, we come before you today to ask your forgiveness and to seek your direction and guidance. We know your Word says, 'Woe to those who call evil good,' but that is exactly what we have done. "We have lost our spiritual equilibrium and reversed our values. "We have exploited the poor and called it the lottery. "We have rewarded laziness and called it welfare. "We have killed our unborn and called it choice. "We have shot abortionists and called it justifiable. "We have neglected to discipline our children and called it building self esteem. "We have abused power and called it politics. "We have coveted our neighbor's possessions and called it ambition. "We have polluted the air with profanity and pornography and called it freedom of expression. "We have ridiculed the time-honored values of our forefathers and called it enlightenment. "Search us, Oh, God, and know our hearts today; cleanse us from every sin and set us free. Amen!" The response was immediate. A number of legislators walked out during the prayer in protest. In six short weeks, Central Christian Church, where Rev. Wright is pastor, logged more than 5,000 phone calls with only 47 of those calls responding negatively. The church is now receiving international requests for copies of this prayer from India, Africa and Korea. Commentator Paul Harvey aired this prayer on his radio program, "The Rest of the Story," and received a larger response to this program than any other he has ever aired. With the Lord's help, may this prayer sweep over our nation and wholeheartedly become our desire so that we again can be called "one Nation Under God." William Reeves Birmingham, Ala. 'You have a wonderful church but we cannot tolerate your denomination' November 15, 2006 The Peace, Unity and Purity Report has brought neither peace, unity nor purity to the PCUSA. Neither the authors nor the headquarters in Louisville have made any effort to explain why this report has caused such dissension, turmoil and separation in this denomination. Many churches are in the process of leaving. Others are contemplating it. Those churches not wanting to separate will pay a heavy price in lost members and in other persons not wanting to join the denomination because it violates the Word of God. Twenty years ago the PCUSA published a study, "Peacemaking, are we now called to resistance?" which recommended violent attacks against weapons storage sites and the withholding of federal income taxes. This was to protest national policy toward the Soviet Union during the cold war! It was anti-American and pro-communist. After learning of this study a couple left our church. When asked why they said, "You have a wonderful church but we cannot tolerate your denomination." When prospective members learn that this denomination approves the ordination of homosexual ministers, they will say NO to the PCUSA – or what's left of it. Jack Vanderbleek, elder Northeast Presbyterian Church St. Petersburg, Fla. Oppressed so hard they could not stand, let my people go November 15, 2006 The deep troubles embroiling the PCUSA bring to mind Exodus 8:1 and that African/American spiritual (but based on somewhat different lyrics:) When "dissidents" were squeezed in Louisville's hand, let my people go. Oppressed so hard they could not stand, let my people go. (so they can worship and serve the one, true and living Lord, and him alone.) And a prayer based on Psalm 18: May God reach down from on high and take hold of us and lift us out of the deep waters that characterize PCUSA leadership. Art Montgomery, elder (inactive) Santa Barbara, Calif. Wasting time and money by staying and fighting among yourselves November 15, 2006 Go ahead and stay. Waste your time and money when you could go out and save lives for God. Why waste time and money staying and fighting among yourselves. Dan Woods If sin is sin, why doesn't everyone who speaks those words walk their talk? November 15, 2006 I found the letter you posted by Loren Golden [November 10, 2006] quite interesting. Golden notes that the sin of homosexuality and gambling are the same, so why the fuss? OK, I happen to be a homosexual who doesn't gamble or see the value. The fact is I can go to the local convenience store in my state of Ohio and buy a lottery ticket or in other words gamble without question. It is legal. I can cross the state line into Indiana and have fun with slot machines, card tables, etc. The technical point is that the casino in Indiana is on the Ohio River, which allows the gambling. I can go to the horse races at River Downs in Cincinnati and gamble quite freely, although I don't. The bottom line is that the gambling that is legal per our governing authorities deals with money. Money is what drives the United States, like it or not. When it comes to homosexuals, I have yet to understand how relationships between two human beings, that in many cases are loving, equate to money. Well, they can't, as the U.S. laws do not put any monetary advantage on that. In fact the popular view of society can bring monetary damages to two people of the same sex loving each other. But I guess the question comes down to the idea that sin is sin. OK, if that is true then why doesn't everyone who speaks those words walk their talk? They don't. Honestly, don't you think it is a problem that there are movements seeking to change the constitutions of legal bodies to forbid same-sex marriage but do not even touch the idea of gambling or any other activities that such groups may think unsuitable? Isn't such action or even lack of action hypocrisy? Does money play into this somehow? Maybe the answer is everyone is a hypocrite in the end. Isn't that what the Bible says in the first place? So where do we go from here? Just food for thought. Earl Apel, member Mount Auburn Presbyterian Church Cincinnati, Ohio A coherent and active strategy expounded by Constitutional Presbyterians November 15, 2006 Some attendees of the recently held Constitutional Presbyterians gathering have written of their displeasure with what transpired there. They perceive that the gathering was another "all talk and no action" event similar to others convened over the years, with no clear strategy offered as a way forward. I respectfully disagree. I heard a coherent and active strategy expounded as follows: 1. Fear not as you strive against the current direction of the PCUSA. Truth, as in Scripture, our confessional and constitutional witness, and the classic Reformed tradition as a whole, is on your side. 2. Know that the issue of the ordination of self-affirming, practicing gays and lesbians has not yet been decided. There is disagreement even on whether or not ordination standards indeed have been changed. You will not know for sure until a case makes it to the PJC. Until then, it is too early to talk of leaving. 3. In the meantime: a) Make sure your theology grounds your polity and ethics. Know what you believe, why you believe it, and how your belief should direct your practice – then make sure it does. b) Articulate and contend for the authority of Scripture, the consensual creeds of the Church, and the orthodox constitutional ordination standards in your congregations, sessions and presbyteries. Get involved. Ask tough questions fairly and forthrightly. Serve when, where, and how you can. Band together with like-minded people for support and encouragement. c) Evaluate your stewardship regarding funds sent to higher judicatories. d) Investigate your congregation's property issues in your state sooner rather than later. e) Use the resources provided to help you with a) through d). 4. Remember that the PCUSA is but a small part of the Church universal. If push comes to shove, there are sound Reformed criteria for distinguishing between the depravity always found in the church and the apostasy that necessitates a decision to leave. For now, though, there is much work to be done, and you are part of God's "can-do army" for doing it. That seems a pretty clear strategy to me. It may not be the strategy some want to hear, but it is a viable strategy nevertheless. Furthermore, it is a strategy I believe is the most appropriate one at this time. I recognize something could happen tomorrow that might change things (was it Ron Scates who said, in his address to the Constitutional Presbyterians, that every day he wakes up and wonders what shame the PCUSA will bring on the gospel today?), but as of now this is where I stand. The Rev. Dr. Clay J. Brown, pastor First Presbyterian Church Mooresville, N.C. Outraged that Presbyterians would publish such a fraudulent book November 15, 2006 I have seen reports that the Presbyterian Publishing Corp. has published a book claiming that the U.S. government helped stage the 9/11 terrorist attacks. I don't know whether this is anti-Americanism gone insane or sheer evil. But I am outraged that a publishing house bearing the name "Presbyterian" would publish such a fraudulent book. I think this shows once again the extent to which the liberation theology comrades have wormed their way into far too many positions of influence in the PCUSA. Liberation theology is Marxism with a thin veneer of Christianity. Basically, these people (including many in Louisville, and almost all in the Washington Office,) consistently oppose US interests and policies, and support or sympathize with those who work to steadily weaken and eventually get rid of the USA as a major world power. I urge Layman readers to actively protest this book. Since most of the anti-Americans are also anti-Semites, I expect that the next book these people will publish will be one claiming that the Holocaust did not happen. J. Edgar Williams Carrboro, N.C. General Assembly passed a strong statement opposing gambling November 15, 2006 On November 8, 2006, David Lewis of Edmond, Oklahoma, asked: Where were the evangelicals when the gambling industry "created redistribution of wealth from poor to the rich" via casinos? I doubt whether any evangelicals that I know have ever favored or voted for gambling. My own home church in Missouri Union Presbytery years ago put forth an overture that passed there and was received by the General Assembly. The assembly debated the issue and passed a strong statement opposing gambling. What has been lost is the moral suasion of our church in society and among its own members. That has been one of the saddest results of our moral confusion on other issues, including particularly, sexuality. Rebecca McElroy, elder Big Creek Presbyterian Church Hannibal, MO 'We believe that God is separating the grain from the chaff' November 15, 2006 Let me tell you that you will know the true freedom of your faith if you remove yourselves from the bureaucracy of the PCUSA. Your faith will focus on Father, Son and Holy Ghost, period. Praise God, we no longer have to wait to hear what a governing body has to say. We believe that God is separating the grain from the chaff. Remove yourselves and serve Christ, not man. The (truth) will set you free. I was in the fight for several years to open the eyes of our small church. I was an elder, attended the New Wineskins Convocation in Minnesota and talked to my session till I was blue in the face and broken in my heart. I look back now and believe it is all in God's time. I want to serve Christ. Susan Borland Praying for those who are twisting of God's word November 15, 2006 Reading this article made me physically ill and incredibly sad for our church. I thank God that my mother is with him now and not here on Earth to witness the depths her beloved church has reached. I will be praying tomorrow, Nov. 14 that the Holy Spirit will convict those advocating this of their sinful twisting of God's word and bring them into conformity with his will. Roger Clark Elder, PCUSA Achtemeier has betrayed the evangelicals that he was appointed to represent November 10, 2006 Remember that this is the presbytery that granted permission for Third Presbyterian Church to leave the denomination with its property. John Knox has always been a very liberal presbytery with Madison, Wisc., being a hub of liberal-think since the 1960s. This should come as no surprise. What is terrible is that Dr. Mark Achtemeier has betrayed the evangelical community that he was appointed to represent on the task force. And it is obvious that the proposed candidate, Scott Anderson, has not been denied his opportunity to serve the church. What has he been doing since 1990 when he gave up his ordination? So he does not need to be ordained to serve? This is just another effort by the liberals to destroy our denomination. One wonders if there are any evangelical Christians left in John Knox Presbytery. Walter Hamer, pastor First Presbyterian Church Monett, Mo. Former pastor of Third Presbyterian Church of Dubuque, Iowa and member of John Knox Presbytery. Nothing has changed – we're still fed half truths and spin November 10, 2006 It is so interesting to me that my presbytery has tried to sell us on the idea that nothing has changed with PUP. Everything is fine and we are acting in fear when we submit overtures to keep our standards of ordination the same. As recently as Sunday I was in a bills and overture meeting and chair of our COM opposed any and all overtures concerning ordination. His words, "Nothings changed." What a crock! And they wonder why there is no confidence in the leadership in many of our presbyteries. I guess nothing has changed. We still get fed half truths and spin. I hope that all the moderates will not look at the results of PUP with their eyes open. E.E. Jones No need for quoting of Calvin for or against schism – he left church November 10, 2006 Let's be real honest. All this "nuanced" quoting of Calvin is simply amusing. The facts remain the record of history. Calvin left the Roman Catholic Church. His actions speak real clear his position regarding schism. There is no need for all the hand wringing and quoting of Calvin for or against schism. He did it (period). Let us move on to the real facts of our situation. Do we constitute two faiths? Can two faiths co-exist? Bill Crawford, pastor Thibodaux, La. Renewal groups need to present a strong front against Louisville apostasy November 10, 2006 Unfortunately, I came away from the Constitutional Presbyterian gathering with much the same feeling as did Jane Neal [letter to the editor, posted Nov. 8, 2006]. I had the same reaction from the Coalition gathering in Atlanta. In both cases fine words were said by well meaning Christians but words alone are not getting the job done. Jane is right that over the past 30 years the PCUSA has gone from bad to worse. We allow Louisville, with a devious and blundering stated clerk, to continue moving us away from real purity, unity and peace that should characterize the PCUSA. As has been said many times, there can be no unity and peace without real Biblical purity. All three must come from our following Christ rather than worldly culture. Attempting to patch leaks in a sinking Titanic is useless. After years of trying, we need to move on. The renewal groups need to unite and present a strong front against the Louisville apostasy. Should several thousand congregations and presbyteries demand elimination of the property trust clause in section 8 of the Book of Order while being prepared to back it up with legal action, Louisville would be forced to listen. By refusing to pay per-capita to GA, GA's legal funds to fight back would be limited. No more casting pearls to swine. A tough approach, but we are up against the hard-ball tactics to move the PCUSA away from being both a Biblically-based denomination and part of the capital C church. Good stewardship does not allow us to walk away without our property. The PCUSA is gasping for its final breath of usefulness. Continuing to beat a dead horse is not constructive and rough on the horse. We need to get serious and take steps to regain our once honorable denomination (not much hope there) or move on. Lets take our property and gracefully separate. Bill Arthur Greenville, S.C. Regularly update us on who is on the way out November 10, 2006 Thanks for the continual good work. How about an article on the Hudson Presbyterian Church from Eastminster Presbytery that voted 161-61 to leave the PCUSA this Sunday November 5th? We are now the second in our presbytery to leave (also, Stow). I'd still like to see an oft-posted chart of congregations about to vote, having voted and the results thereof so we can be updated regularly on who is on the way out. Matthew Everhard Director of Youth and Family Ministries Hudson Presbyterian Church The PCUSA has finally become too liberal for me November 10, 2006 Re: Openly gay PUP member seeks to become inquirer toward ordination as PCUSA minister If this person becomes an ordained minister, then the PCUSA will see more fallout from the GA 2006. More churches will leave the denomination, and the PCUSA will lose a lot more capita per member. I am sorry to see how the PCUSA has finally become too liberal for me. Charles Freeman What happened to the minority opinion in Nicea and Chalcedon? November 10, 2006 As I understand history, Nicea and Chalcedon were not unanimous decisions, yet we have held to them for centuries. I cannot remember. Whatever happened to those who held to the minority opinion in Nicea and Chalcedon? Please check the Greek New Testament. More often than not the Spirit as in Holy Spirit appears as a neuter noun. Referring to the Spirit as "it" robs it of no power or substance. On the other hand, Jesus Christ became God incarnate, taking on flesh, becoming a person who may be referred to as "he" or "who" or whom." If Calvin taught us about the Creator, Redeemer and Sustainer, did he misname the Trinity? I preached more than 300 Sundays to a community of poor and undecided Presbyterians where the majority of men were abusive, irresponsible or drunks or all of the above. More often than not they sat glassy-eyed when God was referred to as "Father" from the pulpit. In addition, they held a view of God that held little appreciation for love. God was a powerful person who held a hammer of judgment over their heads and would "get" them when they got out of line. Preaching of the steadfast love of God was received with some unknown curiosity. On the other hand, Mothers' Day was celebrated with more reverence and respect than Christmas and Easter. There, as in Genesis, and many other Old Testament texts, the craftiness and faithfulness of the women held the families together and brought them to church and held them in the church. This season's lectionary texts are about a Moabite woman, Ruth, who came into the "true" and "elect" people of God by desire and providence. She came from a people who originated in incest. She came in poor, widowed and unacceptable (to some). She went in to the fields to glean (pick up the scraps). Ruth was not a "covenantal" Israelite. In fact, she came from a country holding a long and bloody and unrighteous history of enmity with the people into whom she immigrated. This site with its comments about enmity between conservative and liberal Presbyterians pains me. Ruth, a person from the enemy camp, figures into the blood line of the Jesus Christ we confess in the Nicean and Chalcedonian statements. In that community of poor and uncertain Presbyterians, I often passed fields at this time of year where members of my congregation were out during the Sunday school hour gleaning, picking up ears of corn, from a field that had been harvested by the rich farmer's combine on Friday or Saturday. At other times, I would pass the county dumpsters during the quiet and private hours of the early Sabbath and see members of my parish "shopping" in the dumpsters. At the Sunday school hour on Sundays the landed gentry were warm in their clapboard and brick churches. More than once I have asked myself if being a bourgeois Christian is not easier. Does it really, really matter if I am a "constitutional" Christian or one who has time to debate in the courts or the education and ability to carry on as we presbyters in the PCUSA are doing year after year after year? For Jesus' sake, I hope all of these constitutional and property and sexuality issues do not matter, not as we bang each other around about them. For Jesus' sake, I hope that we are about filling empty hearts and souls and empty mouths and assuaging hurts. We have a higher calling than choosing up sides among the bourgeois and calling each other enemy. Who did Jesus call the enemy except the temptor? Jesus died for the rest of us – liberal, conservative, rich, poor. Archie Willis Gaines Asheville, N.C. Cause of gambling and homosexuality is the same: humankind's sinful nature November 10, 2006 In his November 8 letter to the editor, Rev. David Lewis complained about the focus of Evangelical Christians on combating the spread of the acceptance of the practice of homosexuality as normal, which he sees as a minor problem compared with, for example, gambling. First, I do not want to minimize in any way the sin of gambling or the injustice of allowing those individuals so inclined to set up gambling halls that lure people in with the false hopes of striking it rich, preying on those who are particularly vulnerable to the temptation to sin against the Lord by gambling the money he has entrusted to them. But just as there are those who are prone to the temptation of gambling, there are those who are prone to the temptation of homosexuality, and they are no less ensnared by their sin than are those who are ensnared by the sin of gambling. And just as the gambling addict needs to be delivered from his sin, the practicing homosexual needs to be delivered from his. Aside from the fact that gambling and homosexuality are both sins, there are physical, spiritual, emotional and social costs associated with both. Gambling has its obvious economic repercussions, as Rev. Lewis pointed out. These in turn can lead to depression and desperation, potentially rending families apart or leading to illegal and/or immoral behavior, such as larceny, prostitution or substance abuse. Homosexuality likewise has devastating repercussions. For one, it is responsible for the majority of new cases of sexually transmitted diseases. The Centers for Disease Control acknowledges that "on a national basis, the homosexual is five times more likely to contract syphilis than his heterosexual peer." (quoted in Evangelical Ethics, p. 101, by John Jefferson Davis) Likewise, homosexual practice is the chief culprit in the spread of AIDS in the western world. Moreover, despite the work of homosexual activists, 69 percent of the members of the American Psychiatric Association polled in 1977 regarded homosexuality as a pathological and not a normal, condition (Evangelical Ethics, p. 97). Both gamblers and homosexuals have been lied to. The lie to gamblers has been the promise of riches if they would persist in squandering their income in their vain pursuit. The lie to homosexuals has been that they are naturally born that way, that there is no reason to change their behavior since it follows from their natural, inborn, homosexual orientation. But the root cause of both is the same: humankind's sinful nature. Loren Golden Overland Park, Kan. At GA, PUP members said nothing changed – now one has changed his mind November 8, 2006 All during the ecclesiology committee meetings before the GA meeting, the PUP members, who were always there to "answer" questions, were quick to state that the report did NOT change the Constitution! Some may have believed that and voted with that in mind. Now it turns out that at least one of the famous 20, has changed his mind! Surprise! Kermit Gay Commissioner 217 GA Ecclesiology Committee Liberals are attempting to undermine the authority of the inspired Word of God November 8, 2006 To Lewis Fowler and other Constitutional Presbyterians: I attended the gathering of Constitutional Presbyterians this past Saturday (Nov. 4) in Greenville, S.C. I must be honest with you, I was dismayed to hear yet another plea for us to stay in the PCUSA. We have stayed ... for over three decades and look where it has gotten us today! You said the liberals need us, need our witness. You don't have to be married to someone in order to witness to them. In fact, we're not to be unequally yoked with those who need our witness (the unsaved). You said the liberals are not our enemies. I beg to differ. They are not our brothers and sisters in the Lord and are seeking to coerce us into saying that Jesus is only one way of salvation. They are actively attempting to undermine the authority of the inspired Word of God. The liberals are indeed our enemies. Now, having said that, the Bible commands us to love our enemies. And if we are indeed living in surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, and truly love him, we must obey (John 14:21, 24). But agape love is not soft or wimpy. Instead, it rejoices in the truth (I Cor. 13: 6). So while we love our enemies, we do not fail to speak the truth in love, and stand against their perverted ways of distorting the Holy Scriptures. I'm afraid I came away from the gathering feeling that we are no further along the road. I'm not sure what the point of the weekend was. Could one or some of the organizers enlighten me? (I must inform you that I missed Friday's part of the gathering. Maybe I missed something fundamental in the first day's gathering?) Pastor Edington's challenges were indeed challenging, and I'm one of the many who stood to say, "We can!" But in reflection, I find myself asking, "Where do we go from here?" Jane Neal Youth and Family Life Director First Presbyterian Church Marion, N.C. PCUSA going the way of the UCC November 8, 2006 The current controversies within the PCUSA are a set-piece reconstruction of the "destruction" of the United Church of Canada – a church I grew up in before coming to the United States. As with the PCUSA, the seminaries and head office were taken over by non-Christians and other angels of light. Over time, doctrine was eschewed, trampled and ultimately perverted. The same ruthless duplicity of threatening the removal of property was used by head office to bring local dissenting churches into line. Today, the United Church of Canada ordains homosex candidates and marries people of the same gender. At the church in Ottawa, Canada, my grandfather helped found, a pastor had a live-in boyfriend, and two members of the deacons board lived in open adultery. Nothing was said or done by those who remained. Several years ago when Billy Graham brought a crusade to Ottawa, only one congregation within the United Church of Canada participated, and that pastor was threatened by the denomination for doing so. The remainder of that denomination's local congregations opted out saying they no longer believed Jesus was divine and would not align themselves with those who made such a claim. While all of this is troubling, it is sadly in accordance with last-days prophesy – "Men no longer standing for sound doctrine, and surrounding themselves with teachers who will itch their ears" – as I recall the Word saying. So as distressing as this situation is, we can take comfort that Jesus is coming back soon. As long as there are two of us gathered together. Richard C. Fallis Marshall, Wisc. No one is helped by the reporting of misinformation November 8, 2006 Your recent article regarding the Kirk of the Hills ("Judge Denies Presbytery's Motion to Halt Civil Case Over Kirk Property, Assets," Oct. 27) is replete with factual misinformation. Please note the following corrections: 1) You repeatedly refer to a temporary restraining order. There is no temporary restraining order, nor has one been sought, by either Kirk of the Hills or by Eastern Oklahoma Presbytery. 2) The presbytery did not lack authority to "assume control of the Kirk" because of a restraining order – again, there is no restraining order. Rather, the presbytery simply honored the Kirk's request that the presbytery not impose the stated supply minister and session moderator that it had selected (as outlined in the Book of Order). This arrangement was accomplished through brief communications between the parties. 3) There is one civil lawsuit – not two. It was filed by The Kirk of the Hills Corporation. The presbytery is not "intervening in its [Kirk's] property dispute;" rather, the presbytery was made a defendant – by the Kirk. The only activity in the case since it was filed has been that Eastern Oklahoma Presbytery has filed two motions, and the judge in the case has ruled (as of October 26) on the two motions. Those motions were: (1) a request that the court "stay" the action (meaning, to "postpone" any activity in the lawsuit) until the presbytery has completed its procedures under the Book of Order for handling disputes, and (2) that the Kirk turn over its membership rolls to the presbytery so that the presbytery can begin to handle the dispute as outlined in the Book of Order. 4) There were no "split decisions" on Thursday. There was one judge who ruled on two motions. The judge issued a clear decision on each of the two motions: (1) he denied the motion for stay, and (2) he granted the motion for order to produce the membership rolls. 5) The court's ruling on the motion for stay may have been "viewed as a judgment that 'neutral principles' of law should be followed," but that would be an incorrect view. The judge found that he is bound by the Oklahoma Supreme Court's decision in Presbytery of Cimarron v. Westminster Presb. Enid, 515 P.2d 211 (Okla. 1973). This means the court affirmed that "hierarchical deference" (as opposed to "neutral principles") is the law in Oklahoma. The judge stated that he denied the motion for stay because he found that following the rule of law in Cimarron did not require him to stay this action; the judge found no reason why the two proceedings (the civil proceeding and the church proceeding) cannot occur simultaneously. 6) There is no "Kirk of the Hills Evangelical Presbyterian Church" in Eastern Oklahoma. Currently, the "Kirk of the Hills Corporation" has hired two ministers who have renounced their ordination vows made to the Presbyterian Church (USA), and they are operating an independent church that is currently not affiliated with any denomination. 7) The presbytery established an administrative commission after Kirk officers voted to disaffiliate with the PCUSA, not when the Kirk filed its lawsuit. 8) The presbytery has not held "meetings with members who disagreed with the outcome of the congregational votes;" rather, the presbytery has provided worship opportunities for those members of the Kirk of the Hills who desire to remain with the PCUSA. In this difficult situation, no one is helped by the reporting of misinformation. Craig Hoster Attorney for Eastern Oklahoma Presbytery The church belongs to God and the property belongs to the congregation November 8, 2006 In response to the letter from Richard Wilson posted on Nov. 6, several points leapt out at me. First, with all due respect for Mr. Wilson and all who think that buildings or congregations "belong" to a denomination, the church (that is, the congregation) belongs to God and the property and other assets belong to the congregation which gave them in good faith for the work of the Kirk! If anyone is "stealing," it is a denomination that has set up a trust for itself using someone else's assets. Not too many courts of law would find that in itself an acceptable action. I can't remember how many times I've heard presbytery, synod and GA staff repeat the phrase that "we exist for the individual churches." In other words, whenever pressed, the adjudicatory staff "above" the congregation will usually babel this mantra. Yet in actual practice and belief, most of them believe, act and react as though the congregations exist for their benefit! In other words, the denominational offices in Louisville and the Presbytery of Eastern Oklahoma "should" be trying to do everything in their power to increase the effectiveness of the Kirk's ministry, rather than challenging them in court. This would even include allowing them to depart for another denomination if they so desire, because they are to assist the Kirk to do the Kirk's ministry. And let's be really accurate. The PCUSA did not plant the Kirk! The PCUSA did not even exist in the 1950s and was established only 25 years ago! And the PCUSA is not the denomination of yesteryear! Our denomination is acting like the monkey who sticks his hand into the jar to get the treat inside. He can't get his tightly fisted hand back through the jar opening without releasing the treat and he certainly won't give it up. They say it's a pretty easy way to catch the monkey! Our denomination is caught in the devil's monkey trap by holding so tightly to the property that its loosing the congregations over which God called it to serve. Finally, when the Kirk noticed that its presbytery had already been acting in line with the legal guidance from denominational headquarters (per the "Louisville Papers"), they had reason to believe that the presbytery would follow through on the rest of the guidance and try to claim everything about the Kirk that they could. The Kirk's leadership simply took steps to move the congregation, with assets, in the direction that the majority of the congregation desired. God bless the Kirk and all other congregations who are standing on the Word of God and moving forward with the Great Commission! Pastor Tom Sawyer Middle Sandy PC Homeworth, Ohio Why don't evangelicals fix real problems, like gambling? November 8, 2006 Your journal deals with homosexuality with fervor, but you do so at the expense of real problems. I live in Oklahoma, a state that has banned gay marriage. This same state embraced gambling and the lottery a couple of years ago with passion – and it is draining the town where I live (because we now must suffer the economic and social problems of four casinos). Where were the evangelicals when casinos where popping up here and around the country? Evangelicals want to ban homosexuality, an action that effects no one, and they allow gambling, an action that impoverishes people living in my community. These gamblers then come to my church looking for me to pay their electric bill because they used their ATM card to wipe out their savings in the casino last weekend. Where are the evangelicals fighting this economic evil? Where are you? Why don't evangelicals fix real problems, like the government created redistribution of wealth from the poor to the rich (gambling)? When the poor and the retired waste their money in casinos, we all pay the price in higher crime rates, dealing with bad checks, the breakdown of the family, and the increase in people looking for the church to clean up their financial mess. There are more pressing issues than homosexuality. Rev. David Lewis Edmond, Okla. The affronts to God ministers are pushing will mean nothing November 8, 2006 So sad. When these ministers are spending eternity in hell, these affronts to God that they are pushing will not mean anything to them. Jim Collins If you can't produce factual evidence supporting conspiracy, apologize November 8, 2006 Response to Richard Wilson [letter to the editor, posted November 6, 2006] You make a great number of claims in your letter sir. I was just wondering were you got your information. 1) What information do you have about a conspiracy by The Kirk of the Hills, The Layman and others? 2) What evidence of ordination vows violation can be produced? I would also like to point out that I have not seen any person within the PCUSA leadership publicly refute, apologize or even try to explain the "Louisville Papers" that The Layman has made public. I am really tired of people (on both sides) throwing comments out without any facts to back them up. BTW: I heard it from a very reliable source is not a fact. If you cannot produce some form of factual evidence supporting your claims of conspiracy and violation of vows, then I would submit sir that you owe some people an apology! Marc Karasek, elder Norcross Presbyterian Church Norcross, Ga. Gays will get the same forgiveness as Haggard when they repent as he did November 8, 2006 When will they ever get it? I will briefly refute two letters that appeared in the Nov. 6th edition of the Rocky Mountain News, and then I will give you a very Biblical perspective on the Ted Haggard affair. One author wondered if Christians will now be willing to extend the "same love, compassion and forgiveness" to all gays and lesbians that Ted Haggard's parishioners extended to him. That's easy. Of course we will – as soon as those gays and lesbians do exactly what Ted Haggard did: Confess that they were or are involved in sexual activities that are immoral and repulsive (Haggard's word); that they are a sinner, have fallen and desperately need to be forgiven and healed (Haggard's words); and ask for forgiveness from God and their fellow mankind (as Haggard did). The other author quoted "Judge not, lest ye be judged" – and then (no surprise) followed that up by judging some people to be "self-anointed," judging them to be "fearmongers," judging them to have "a judgmental philosophy," and judging their churches to be "guilt-factory enterprises." Those who proclaim that it is wrong to judge should be wary of judging others – lest they be called what they are: A hypocrite. (Note: I, as a lot of other people do, see nothing wrong with judging – as long as we do it righteously. After all, if the call is to forgive others who sin against us, how can we forgive unless we first judge that another committed a sin or a crime or wronged us in some way?) Now to today's Bible story. There once was an adulteress who was being chased by a mob of men who were bent on stoning her to death because she was an adulteress. The picture that is often presented is that she ran and ran and ran until she fell exhausted, spent, physically broken and out of breath at the feet of a man who was not only not chasing her, neither did he have a stone in his hands. Perhaps she didn't know if this man would also pick up a stone or not; she was exhausted and perhaps thought that by being so near this man (surely no one would hurl stones at her and take the chance of hitting this unarmed man without giving him a chance to move away first), she would have a few moments of time to gather her thoughts and ask God to forgive her for her sins before the mob would surely kill her. So there she possibly was, exhausted, spent, physically broken, spiritually broken, out of breath, possibly exhaustedly pleading with God to forgive her with her last final moments of her life – at the feet of Jesus. Jesus looked at her – on her knees, hands before him, exhausted and possibly pleading with God. Jesus looked at the mob – circling around trying to get a good shot when the stones began to fly as they pointed their fingers and cursed her. Most people have heard the story. I will give credit where credit is due. Unless someone knows something I don't, I think that, overall, the Rocky Mountain News did an outstanding job in reporting this affair. The paper stuck to the facts, didn't editorialize its news stories, didn't demonize Haggard, and was as kind to Haggard and his family as could be expected given the nature of the allegations and the "status" of the man who admitted that he was "appropriately removed from the ministry" because part of his life was "so repulsive and dark," he is a sinner, fallen, and in desperate need of forgiveness, healing and help. Ted Haggard confessed his sins in a way that no unrepentant gay or lesbian ever will. In the story of the exhausted, broken and spent adulterous at the feet of Jesus pleading with God to forgive her while the unrepentant mob circled the two pointing fingers and making accusations – it's not hard to figure out character represents Ted Haggard and which characters represent the others who relish at pointing fingers and making accusations about the sins of others when they have no intention of joining Haggard at the feet of Jesus and asking God to forgive them of their sins also. Robert E. Forman Lakewood, Colo. Haggard's behavior would not be approved or acceptable in PCUSA November 8, 2006 It is completely surprising that Thomas Warren [letter to the editor, posted November 6, 2006] thinks that Ted Haggard would not be disciplined and removed from ministry if he were a Presbyterian. I know of no COM or presbytery in the entire USA that would approve of soliciting a male prostitute, buying drugs and then lying about it. Thomas Warren may dislike the PUP report and the AI, but there is no possible way that Haggard's behavior would be approved or acceptable. His comments completely distort the PUP report and the AI and are despicable. Art Seaman Grace Presbyterian Church Kittanning, Pa. That word 'some' means not 'everyone' November 8, 2006 Response to James D. Schroll's letter to the editor, posted Oct. 31, 2006 In a careful re-reading of my letter, [posted Oct. 27, 2006] Point 1. I was confirmed in my belief that I never mentioned "Baltimore Presbytery" at any point in my letter. "Baltimore" is a city in the north eastern United States, and in some contexts is representative of liberal opinion, generally. Not as much as "Boston" say, but still progressive, expansive in views. In my letter, I even said, quoting myself in context, "Because affirming the constitution means nothing to some of them in this 'words-don't-mean-anything' age." That word "some" means not "everyone." Point 2. I am assured by God's Word that everybody "lies." But lying about what one believes is a big deal. It really doesn't matter too much what a presbytery thinks about my or Mr. Schroll's views of the confessions (except in the most practical of terms, – job, insurance, ministry, things like that). My point was not what the presbytery did at my ordination examination – they may have blown it! But what does count for us both is What do we actually, truly, really, in our hearts, believe? That really matters for time and eternity. Point 3. I am however, very enthusiastic about Mr. Schroll's rejoinder. For this could suggest that he will be petitioning "Baltimore Presbytery" to ask them to reaffirm the ordination standards of the church, specifically at G-6.0106b. Perhaps also he will then ask them to adopt a policy that they will not "honor" ordinations in other presbyteries that do not comply with this standard. That is what we did here in Central Florida. I am thrilled to think that they might follow our good example. For safety's sake, however, I will not be holding my breath until those policies are adopted up in "Baltimore. Turning blue is not all that would happen to me if I held my breath till Baltimore Presbytery reaffirms G-6.0106b. I am not suicidal. There's a kind of a hush, all over Baltimore now. We all know that we will never read this headline in The Layman – "Baltimore Presbytery Defends 'Fidelity and Chastity.'" Point 4. My comments about the views up in Baltimore were born from extensive, thorough and painful conversations with several pastors from "Baltimore" who could not agree with my Reformed and Biblical ethic that homosexual sex was contrary to God's holy law, and is an exclusionary sin for church officers, including pastors. Those pastors from "Baltimore" indicated to me directly and personally, that I was the only Presbyterian pastor they knew who did not hold the view that active, practicing homosexuals (with some proviso for committed relationships etc.) ought to be included in the leadership of our church. This conversation preceded (as I recall) a "Worship Celebration" on Sunday morning for gays and lesbians at the host church of a PCUSA national training event for church revitalization we had attended together (no town mentioned this time, thanks to Mr. Schroll). But it was up north It could even have been in Baltimore. But it wasn't. Thomas Warren, pastor Deltona Presbyterian Church Deltona, Fla. PCUSA leaders have strayed from our historic Reformed heritage November 6, 2006 Congratulations to the Ventura Community Presbyterian Church! This is exactly what all of us should be doing, calling the situation by the truth of the matter, that the denominational leaders are the ones who have strayed from our historic Reformed heritage. Sadly most of us do not have the people who can wax eloquent on these matters. But it is wonderful to see a session able to verbalize what many of us sense and know. This is the kind of statement that hopefully will have the same effect on our leadership as Luther's theses did on his church. But now, we must be in prayer for our brothers and sisters in Ventura, that they will stand strong in coming days on the truth and necessity of their message. Pastor Tom Sawyer Middle Sandy PC Homeworth, Ohio PCUSA leaders use congregations' donations to further their social agenda November 6, 2006 November is the month in which many PCUSA congregations set up their budgets for the upcoming year. If you are one who has input to your congregation's budget and if you are angry about the attempts by the leadership of the General Assembly to make an end run around the constitutional ordination standards, or if you are upset about the publications of the Westminster John Knox Press, or if you are frustrated by the PCUSA's Washington Office being out of touch with the majority of Presbyterians or if your blood pressure rises every time you are reminded that your money is being given to the NCC and the WCC, then consider redirecting ALL contributions ( including per capita) that might be sent to the General Assembly in Louisville to other organizations who will use your contribution to further God's Kingdom here on earth. Money sent to Louisville just enables those in power to use your funds to further their social agenda. If your pastor is younger or fears some sort of career limiting action against him/her if per capita isn't paid, go ahead and pay it but don't send a nickel more. There will be no real renewal at the Witherspoon Center unless there is a change in leadership. One way to facilitate change is to cut off funding. And this is something that each one of us can do. Joe Woods Wallingford, Pa. 'Common sense' has little chance in current environment November 6, 2006 The letter from Rev. Thomas Gilliland [posted October 31, 2006] is far too intelligent an approach to the problem regarding the ownership of church property. What chance does "common sense' have in the current environment? Ed Spaun Winter Haven, Fla. Jacksonville Manifesto: 'What a refreshing and Christ-like document' November 6, 2006 Thanks for providing the information and link to the Jacksonville Manifesto. What a refreshing and Christ-like document; challenging the tactics of the right wing and their pseudo religious language, and reminding us all of the call to follow Christ in our love and concern for neighbors and all God's creation. Your inclusion of the link allowed me to add my name to this most timely document. Rev. Jeff Light Olathe, Kan. In PCUSA Haggard would not even have had to resign his ministry November 6, 2006 Does it make you shiver to think that Ted Haggard (the disgraced evangelical leader who confessed his homosexual sex to his congregation on Sunday lost his ministry in a 14,000 member church and resigned as head of the National Association of Evangelicals), would not even have had to resign his ministry in the PCUSA, nor would he have suffered any disgrace at all from his church or governing council, had he been given a scruple about fidelity in marriage and chastity in singleness? He could have been shielded from discipline by the language of the Authoritative Interpretation of the 2006 General Assembly regarding our ordination standards, permitting such sexual practice? It is disgraceful. But at least the drugs could have got him into trouble. Thomas Warren, pastor Deltona Presbyterian Church A similar declaration was made four years ago in Louisville November 6, 2006 The Layman is rapidly becoming one of my favorite sources of irony. I celebrate with thanksgiving the integrity and courage of Community Presbyterian Church in making the declaration as reported. The irony is that four years ago, a group of Presbyterian ministers traveled to Louisville, to present just such a declaration at the Presbyterian Center. The Call to Confession and Repentance was posted on the doors of the center in an act that was intended to remind people of the courage of Luther and the other original reformers. Over 100 Presbyterians signed on to endorse that call to repentance. We were graciously received by the stated clerk and some of his staff but denigrated by others. All of that was to be expected. What was not expected (and what I find ironic in this story) was the lack of any cohesive support or recognition of the validity of our concerns from within the splintered and self-serving renewalist community. The five pastors who made the trip did so fully aware that they were risking personal and professional approbation. Each of them has paid a price for their courage. It was unexpected that so much of it would come from allies and alleged friends. If you can find the story in your archives I, as one of the authors of the original document, urge you to run it again – not as a counter-point to Community's declaration but as a complement to it. We were correct four years ago. We are even more correct today. How much longer will the conservative and faithfully Reformed body of renewalists wait before they begin behaving like William Wallace and a bit less like the Scottish Lords? Rev. Jim Yearsley Tampa, Fla. Another 'Great Awakening' November 6, 2006 We need another "Great Awakening," proclaiming unapologetically the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Will Fletcher, pastor Vaughn Presbyterian Church Bentonville, Ark. Allowing the Kirk to leave with property would not be appropriate November 6, 2006 I have two very conservative friends who asked me "Why do you waste time reading The Layman and Layman Online?" They continued to say "Looking for truth and accurate information there is like looking to Wikipedia for reliably accurate information!" I generally agree, but I told them I read everything that is available to me so that I will be as well informed as possible regarding anything that affects the PCUSA. In reading the October 31st letters, I found more of the same, but also real truth in Rev. Steven Wirth's letter "Churches try to steal property from PCUSA" and also the editors comment regarding that letter. The best example I have knowledge of is near where I live – The Kirk of the Hills in Tulsa, Okla. Some time ago, the pastors at The Kirk decided they could not remain in the PCUSA – instead of taking the moral and ethical course, they began plotting with help from The Layman and others to leave the PCUSA and to take the congregation and the property. When they put their plan in place, they began to execute it with the explanations "We didn't leave the PCUSA – they left us!" and "We couldn't trust the presbytery to treat us fairly!" Eastern Oklahoma Presbytery had ample evidence of their irregular actions and intention to violate their ordination vows but chose to deal with The Kirk with compassion and not take action to remove the leadership. Now we see how their trust and dealing with compassion was betrayed by The Kirk's leadership. You (the editors) spoke truth when you indicated that the presbytery has the option to dissolve the congregation and allow it to leave with the property but what you failed to mention was whether it would be appropriate to do so in this case. It is certainly not appropriate in this case! The pastors not only violated their ordination vows by scheming to facilitate stealing the property but have also acted with immoral and unethical behavior while claiming to be acting in the name of God against the "apostate" denomination. They are employing an effective public relations campaign that seeks to portray the PCUSA as no longer believing in the Bible. The success of this campaign is facilitated by our being in what is described here as "the buckle of The Bible Belt." Just imagine the damaging affect this campaign can have on the remaining PCUSA congregations! Most of the new church development in Tulsa took place in the heady growth days of the 1950s. Plotting the location of the Tulsa area Presbyterian churches along with some knowledge of the area growth patterns reveals the significance of the presbytery decision to locate a church where The Kirk was established about 45 years ago. Another letter entitled "A common sense opinion on church property" contains some points to which I am sympathetic but it is still off the mark and regrettably once The Kirk filed suit, it is now in the hands of the court system to resolve. I recognize that the presbytery is responsible for there being a church for the denomination where The Kirk of the Hills building stands and I also know that the investment of time, energy and resources of all the current and former members of the congregation along with the support of EOP and PCUSA is responsible for the church that exists today. How can anyone say that the PCUSA does not deserve to have a congregation at that location even if a majority of the congregation following their leadership want to leave the PCUSA and become part of another denomination? So where do we stand with considerations of a common sense opinion on church property and churches trying to steal property from PCUSA? Let's look to the pastors and ask the question, "If you have made a decision that you must leave the PCUSA, wouldn't the moral and ethical way to leave be for you to pack your bags and leave? What about the congregation? If some of them then want to follow the pastor's lead, they are free to do so morally and ethically without stealing from the PCUSA. Richard Wilson Tulsa, Okla. When is someone going to press disciplinary charges against the stated clerk? November 6, 2006 If the pronouncements and instructions of the stated clerk are contrary to three authoritative interpretations of the General Assembly, and if the confidential documents he circulated are as well, when is someone going to press disciplinary charges against the stated clerk? His actions are threatening the peace and unity of the Presbyterian Church, and he certainly is not acting in the love and justice of Jesus Christ. Timothy Smith Las Cruces, N.M. Presbytery's guidelines disenfranchises shut-ins November 6, 2006 A packet mailed by the Presbytery of Western North Carolina includes proposed guidelines for presbytery consideration of requests by congregations to be dismissed from the Presbyterian Church (USA) to another Reformed denomination. The requirement of 50 percent of membership present, and 75 percent of membership does not allow for absentee balloting, and I believe the presbytery has stated that everyone must be present to be counted. Although the shut-ins can send a message to be read at the meeting. This disenfranchises at least two very important members of our little church who are shut-ins. One was one of the first women elected to the session, and the other is the daughter of one of the founding families. Both are life-long members. Since elders can administer communion to shut-ins in their homes, I think the elders (with observers from presbytery) should be able to take them their ballot. If presbytery denies a vote to an invalid member of our church, then the invalid member should not be counted in the potential membership. Peg Russell Murphy Presbyterian Murphy, N.C. A decision to disaffiliate from the PCUSA is not a knee-jerk reaction November 6, 2006 I do not share Stephen Moss' optimism [letter to the editor, posted October 6, 2006] over the action of a limited number of presbyteries deciding to uphold our constitutional ordination/installation standards. At best these middle governing bodies represent about 12 percent of our 173 presbyteries. Such a tiny ripple is not going to turn the tide on this issue. I do join him in praying that Constitutional Presbyterians may receive grace from God to expand on this small beginning. Their November 3-4 regional event in Greenville, S.C., bears watching. Even so, such an expansion would need to be exponential to generate an impact; if that happens, it surely must be from God. Keep Loren Golden's counsel to pray, dear friends, pray! Loren Golden also does well to remind us that it is Christ's Church to retake or to dismiss to demise. Though our dear Savior may employ us in laboring toward reclaiming the PCUSA as a vital part of his body, our denomination is still his to reclaim - without him, we can do nothing. In wondering why evangelicals are not "planning the steps to take back the PCUSA," Michael Edwards quotes the Declaration of Independence. He then wonders, "Why are we not discussing the means necessary ... to take back the denomination? Why should we be the ones to leave, and why so soon? Why are we planning a defeatist strategy without even, apparently, discussing seriously the idea of 'taking back' the denomination?" That one who lifts up the Declaration of Independence for inspiration can go on to express dismay over those who are leading the way toward independence from the "destructive" "Form of Government" willed to our denomination by the 217th General Assembly, leaves me in breathless awe. The actions of local congregations in Oklahoma, Louisiana, Iowa, North Carolina and Ohio are neither rash nor defeatist. The seeds of our present dilemma were sown during the fundamentalist/modernist controversy of the 1920s and were left to steep on the back burner until the heat was turned up with the adoption of the Confession of 1967. During the continuing controversy over ordination standards that roiling pot of stewing seeds was moved to the front burner, with the passage of the Authoritative Interpretation of 1978. It has been on a hard boil ever since. The fact that after almost 30 years on high heat that pot is at last boiling over should come as no surprise. It should not for one moment be thought that a decision to disaffiliate from the PCUSA is a knee-jerk reaction to the choices made by the 217th General Assembly. The adoption of the authoritative interpretation of 2006 and the reception of the Trinity Paper are just the last two straws; the ones that broke the camel's back. In every case with which I am familiar, the process of reaching such a decision has been long-suffering, slow, patient, deliberate and prayerful. Pastors and ruling elders together have earnestly and persistently asked "that the Lord would fill [them] with an extra measure of his Spirit, that [they] might have wisdom, courage, and boldness to do what he would have [them] do." These leaders have worked, often times over the course of many years, to equip themselves and their memberships "with sound knowledge of the historic doctrines of the Church ... particularly relating to ... the reliability of Scripture ... the character of God ... the sinful condition of [humankind] ... the sole sufficiency of Christ's work of atonement ... justification by faith alone ... sanctification and … the covenant community of faith." They have been careful to accompany this with teaching on "how to use Scripture to demonstrate these essential truths" and "how to defend" said "truths against the lies the evil one has sown" into the seed bed of our denomination. Many of these same local leaders have gone the second and third and tenth mile to "take this sure knowledge and share it in a spirit of love and compassion with" and within our presbyteries and higher governing bodies; encouraging our denomination to "repent of [its] worldly beliefs and practices and turn to Jesus Christ." They have availed themselves of every opportunity to bear testimony for the gospel of Christ Jesus in their presbyteries and synods and in the General Assembly. All that Loren Golden outlines as needing to be done has been accomplished. All that Michael Edwards longs to see happen has happened, over the course of the past eighty years. We should not marvel that some local churches now are deciding that they have come to the end of the road on their pilgrimage with the PCUSA. We might rather wonder what has taken them so long. Local sessions and congregations are deciding, in good faith, that remaining faithful to Jesus Christ and staying loyal to the PCUSA are at such opposite poles that it is no longer possible to rally to both. They can flock to the standard raised (or, rather, lowered) by our denomination or they can flee to the Pioneer and Perfecter of our faith (Hebrews 12:2). Given such a choice, trustworthy and obedient disciples of Jesus Christ chose the only Savior of their souls and every soul that flies to him. As they turn to our Lord and take their leave from us, we can second guess them. We can impugn their motives. We can cry that they have not tried hard enough or long enough or prayerfully enough to retake our denomination. We can insist that loyalty to the PCUSA and faithfulness to Christ Jesus are not so incompatible as they seem to think. We can beckon them to remain in solidarity with the ripple of protest that softly swells against Presbyterian pigheadedness. We can label them deserters and schismatics and heretics. We can grab after their property and strip them of their ordinations. Yet, none of our machinations will turn them from their chosen course. They have decided to follow Jesus and there is no turning back. What does faithfulness to Christ require of us who still remain in the PCUSA: a hold-the-fort-mentality, a pursuit of vengeance against these wayward brothers and sisters, a tooth-and-nail-fight to retain local church property for the benefit of the "true" church? Is such asked of us by the Prince of Peace? They have chosen, how will we chose? More, what will our choice tell the world about faithfulness to Jesus Christ? Jim Henkel, NWAC endorsing church pastor North Benton Presbyterian Church North Benton, Ohio, Eastminster Presbytery The disciples fought for their spiritual integrity November 6, 2006 Every church that is a member of the Confessing Church Movement and those sympathetic to it should have their sessions pass resolutions asking their presbytery to join the Constitutional Presbyterian Movement. We should have 100 presbyteries that are signatories. By overwhelming the denomination with signatory presbyteries, at minimum, we will at least get a two-synod denomination. The progressives to save their churches in those presbyteries would have to sign onto a two synod denomination. Conversely, evangelical Presbyterian churches in liberal presbyteries could be rescued. A two synod denomination would consist of one synod each, progressives (Auburn) and evangelicals (Westminster). Each synod would have their own Permanent Judicial Counsel whose highest court ends at the top synod level. Each synod would have its own publishing house and would consist of sub-synods that follow the current region of synods, and then of the presbyteries. The presbyteries of both the Auburn and Westminster synods should have similar boundaries so that a certain level of common fellowship can be maintained using the same office every three months a common meeting, etc. There could be committees that overlap the synod bounds at the presbytery level. It would be an opportunity for the Westminster evangelicals to evangelize the Auburn wing. The net effect would be carving out a legally safe place for evangelicals to worship the Lord Jesus Christ and serve him with integrity, in our own synod. The net effect for the progressives would be the same even though many of their beliefs are not consist with Biblical theology. The two would come together with committees and common meetings at the presbytery level to maintain unity and would join together at General Assembly to elect a moderator and stated clerk. The jurisdiction of the GAC would be administrative matters: the Missions Board, Pension Board, educational institutions, etc. Theological issues would be reserved for the respective synod's GAC or SAC to decide, each would have its own publishing house and Permanent Judicial Counsel ending at the synod level. Each synod would elect its own GAC or SAC, on which the G.A. stated clerk and moderator would be permanent voting members. Each synod (Westminster and Auburn) should have equal numbers of board members representing their theological views at each PCUSA seminary and college) The only way to get there is by each session voting to push their presbytery into becoming a constitutional presbytery. Right now the progressives have the levers of power. If we take away their power by becoming constitutional presbyteries, we will force them into a two synod denomination, in which everyone would win. I still think that each church should have an unaffiliated corporation created to gather assets in case everything goes wrong. It is time to stand up as men and women of the Lord Jesus Christ and fight. The disciples if anything were fighters and fought for their spiritual integrity. John Almquist

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