 |
|
| November
2006 letters Archives of letters to the editor  |
|
| Fundamentalists
who follow Mohammed and those who follow Jesus are similar November 30, 2006 As a member of the church in question, I feel obligated to respond to some of the deficiencies in your recent article. One thing your article failed to report is that the other offers for the church property were not for a lesser amount, but indeed wanted the property donated or given to them. As a small, struggling congregation, simply donating the property to a group simply because they are Christian was not an option. We needed the real estate to be converted into real money so as to continue our mission just across town; in many ways, this was a matter of survival for us. With these funds, our new church has become financially solvent again and is able to continue its outreach mission with renewed vigor and resolve. I might also remind your readers that the Church is the body of Christ, which is to say that the Church is not any particular building or piece of property, but a group of flesh and blood human beings lifting high their voices to the Almighty. It is pure idolatry to suggest otherwise, to suggest that the building in which this takes place takes precedence over the people gathered to worship. To place the material building at the forefront of your concerns exhibits the shallow materialism that has come to dominate so much of our culture. It is shameful and entirely beside the point. I might also remind Rev. Enoch [letter to the editor, posted November 29, 2006] that the cross, too, has been very much a part of the iconography of conquest. Need I remind him, or any of the other Christians who seem so eager to brush over the fact of the Crusades? Our ability to forget this and claim that the crescent and star are such icons even today is blatant historical amnesia. Moreover, that Rev. Enoch would even venture to say that we "long ago gave up lifting high the cross" is offensive and hurtful. We lift high the cross everyday, and do so with voices that are humble and beseeching, rather than dogmatic and arrogant. This sentiment coming from such a man of the cloth makes me sad indeed. In fact, and contrary to another reader of your fine publication, we are a congregation of discerning spirituality, and we are aware of the nature of these times. And it is precisely in light of both of these things that I absolutely support our decision to sell the property as we did. To combat the dogmatic ideologies of both fundamentalist Christians and Muslims remains the dominant issue of our time, and we are working actively within this realm of faith. So many of your readers fail to see the absolute similarity between the fundamentalists who claim, erroneously, to follow Mohammed and the fundamentalists who claim, equally erroneously, to follow Jesus Christ. Let us remember that the latter gave but one commandment, namely, to love thy neighbor. We have some new neighbors in Bossier City, and we will love them like ourselves. C.J. Sentell Nashville, Tenn. Member, Trinity Presbyterian Church Bossier City, La. Letters to Kirkpatrick discuss trust and ask him to look critically at his actions November 30, 2006 What Clifton Kirkpatrick can do is resign – which is what many good ministers and pastors have counseled him to do in private letters addressed to him personally. I know of two examples personally that discussed the issue of trust and leadership and asked him to look critically at his actions. So far there has been no response. The GA will seemingly not elect anyone else (I personally don't know why!). I would ask him to resign. Please. Todd Bensel CLP Pilot Rock, Ore. Replacing the cross with crescent is replacing Jesus Christ with anti-Christ November 30, 2006 This is in response to sale of church building to Muslims and refusing to sell the property to Christians. I fail to understand how some one can see the Cross replaced by Crescent. Yet John Knox Church Trinity Church has now become a Muslim "Terror Center." I don't agree with Dr. Sentell that "We worship the same God, the God of Abraham." Islam has nothing to do with God of Abraham. Muslims have yet to prove this claim. May I ask Dr. Sentall if they (Muslims) believe in the same Savior? I recently wrote to the American ambassador in Islamabad Pakistan, that the United States of America will soon become the "United Islamic States of America." Replacing the cross with the crescent is replacing Jesus Christ with anti-Christ. I am sure the church leadership really understands what they are doing for future generations of their own. Here in Pakistan the Presbyterian Church (USA) did the same. They sold their/our properties to Muslims and rejected our higher offers. Let the people of United States know that in Pakistan, we – the Christians – are not sold a piece of land for church building. We have to obtain special permission to build a worship place. Not only in Pakistan, but every Muslim country does not allow a church in their country. What Muslims do not allow other faiths, how can they manage to get in non-Islamic countries? I believe the Lord is very near and "Sale of Church is Seal of Satan" the sign of Beast. However, we, the Pakistani Christians, can only pray for the ignorant Christian leadership of America, who are giving away America to Islam on a platter. Bishop Timotheus Nasir Islamic Republic of Pakistan Hedden's column is perfect for the beginning of Advent November 30, 2006 Thank you, Peggy Hedden, for your most wonderful article on "the big deal about Jesus." It is perfect for the beginning of Advent and it is perfect in that it speaks volumes on behalf of orthodoxy. How timely and beautiful. Merry Christmas, Peggy. Rev. Steven L. Seng First Presbyterian Church Wellsburg, W.Va. Louisville's leadership has laid anything Presbyterian a waterless waste November 30, 2006
The face of shame and the face of one completely overheated in a place that has no water. The condition where the tongue swells even a swallow shut and the condition of shame are the same. YaBeSH is the condition of being laid waste in the absence of life. YaBeSH Louisville leadership of the Presbyterian Church (USA). You are an embarrassment to me; even in my own meager attempt to reach for that which is just, true, good, holy; you are an embarrassment and be ashamed Louisville leadership. You have laid anything Presbyterian a waterless waste. Such a prosecution of YaBeSH has been 35 years in coming. Roger L. Williamson Public school teacher PCUSA is helping to advance the cause of Islam November 30, 2006 The selling of a Presbyterian Church (USA) property to those who eschew the precious faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, of which we are adherents and believers, is no less than what Judas did for 30 pieces of silver. As far as I am concerned, this is paramount to scuttling the last vestage of hope to repair and redeem this soul sick denomination. They have indeed betrayed our Lord; shall we continue to stand idly by. Not only did they sell the property, they have sold their own souls by agreeing to study the Koran, and state that they do not see any reason to tell the gospel to Muslims because they are "all children of Abraham." What about their commission from Jesus to witness of him to all the world; every tribe and nation and tongue? What about the Lord, who said to Abraham, "Of Isaac shall thy seed be ...." Was it Abraham who died on the cross for the sins of the world? They are helping to advance the cause of Islam and blemish the cause of Christ among the member churches who are still connected to the denomination, whose dollars pay the salaries of those who now bear the same stigma as Judas and the illegal courts of the Sanhedrin, who gave over their messiah for the pottage of political correctness and spiritual corruption. Glenda Smith Asheville, N.C. Used as a tool of Islam to destroy Christianity November 30, 2006 Dr. Sentell's view of God is just as distorted as the pagans when he stated, "We worship the same God, the God of Abraham." He claims the sale was part of God's plan to help advance mutual respect. The imam has offered to teach him Arabic. Dr. Sentell, a psychologist working at Barksdale Air Force Base, is "seriously considering" his offer to learn the language of the Koran. Sentell should become a Muslim, thus Sentell can worship a God of the sword rather than a God of love. Islam rejoiced at the purchase of Trinity Presbyterian, and no doubt proceeded to eliminate any vestige of Christianity in their mosque. Men like Sentell are hated by Islam, given no respect. In his book written in 1898, Christianity and the American Commonwealth, Bishop Charles B. Galloway gave a series of lectures delivered in the Chapel at Emory College, Oxford, Ga., March, 1898. On page 26, Galloway states, " Mohammedanism has produced an enslaved personality. Its Koran demands intellectual slavery; its harem requires domestic slavery; its state implies and enforces both a religious and civil slavery." The Koran puts a premium upon war, offering the highest rewards to those who slay the greatest number of infidels. Page 27. Mohammed's cardinal principle, that the end justifies the means, consecrated every form of deception and lying, and encouraged every sort of persecution and violence. The citizen is the slave of the state; he has no rights to be respected. Mohammedanism is an absolute despotism, the most gigantic engine of intolerance and persecution the world ever saw. Lastly, page 27, there is a proverb which says: "Where the Turkish horse sets its hoof the grass never grows." In every land swept by this heartless despotism it has left a tale and trail of blood. If Sentell wants to accommodate Islam, he can be my guest, because Sentell will be used as a tool of Islam to destroy Christianity, and will be hated with no respect given to Sentell and to his family. Lou. S. Nowasielski 'Authoritative interpretation' in this case means nothing other than 'heresy' November 30, 2006 How incredibly sad to watch the PCUSA, a once great denomination established on the firm foundation of Jesus Christ as Lord of heaven and earth, shaken to its core by a house filled with rebellious children insisting they know better than their maker what is good, right and true. "Authoritative interpretation" in this case means nothing other than "heresy." When do we finally face a cold, hard fact. Apostasy is "death" as hard as the word is to swallow. At some point when we realize the meaning of the word, we who seek the way, the truth and the life will "flee fornication." Wise men still seek him. Karen Kolbinsky Hillsborough, N.C. By removing the cross, what was tacitly understood is now official November 29, 2006 Regarding the situation involving Trinity Presbyterian Church in Bossier, La, The Layman states that, "The spire of the former First Presbyterian Church of Bossier City, Louisiana, once lifted high the cross. It now makes visible the symbol of the star and crescent which was once a central emblem of Islamic conquest." Judging by the sad quotes in the article, I would guess that this church long ago gave up lifting high the cross. Only now what was tacitly understood is now official. Stories like this make the dying nature of the Presbyterian Church (USA) so understandable and perhaps necessary. Come Lord Jesus! Rev. Chris Enoch, senior pastor Third Presbyterian Church Uniontown, Pa. In the discussions about what is 'the true church,' dollars do matter November 29, 2006 In reference to the article reporting the sale of Presbyterian property to an Islamic group, I go back to a not dissimilar event that took place in 1970 in Kane, Pa. It followed my pastorate there, ending in 1967. With much pressure from the Presbytery of Lake Erie, a merger between that Presbyterian congregation and a more liberal UCC congregation also located in Kane took place. Being conservative, I felt led, with a little encouragement from the presbytery executive, to seek other pastures. The newly formed congregation chose to use the newer, more modern UCC facilities, leaving the beautiful stone Presbyterian edifice standing empty. After standing vacant for three years, the classic Presbyterian structure was sold. The buyer: the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The sum paid was $26,000. It now supposedly stands as a memorial to Gen. Thomas L. Kane, who was a friend of early Mormon pioneers. And when you stop to visit the memorial, guess what? A Mormon missionary will step out to greet you, show you around and introduce you to the true faith of Mormonism. It only reminds me that in the discussions about what is "the true church," dollars do matter. Bill Bovard Grove City, Pa. Saying we worship the same God is an affront to Christianity and Islam November 29, 2006 Just wondering when our pastors are going to do their homework on Islam. Saying we worship the same God is an affront to both Christianity and Islam. No imam, actually trained in Islam, would ever say he worships the same God as we do in Christianity. The Koran certainly makes it clear that we do not worship the same God. Dialogue is one thing. Making the claim we worship the same God is heresy from both sides. What in the world are these guys reading when it comes to Islam? If they are that uneducated on Islam, I have a good price on a bridge in Brooklyn they might like to consider buying. John McWilliams Naples, Fla. Change made so resolution did not promote same-sex civil marriage November 29, 2006 I would like to point out that your article is in error. In paragraph 3, you list the language in the original motion regarding same-sex marriage. As you correctly list later, the motion was changed to a substitute motion that removed the word "marriage" from the RESOLVED clause. This changed the meaning of the resolution to one that did not promote same-sex civil marriage, but rather supported an alternative that is not called marriage but which includes the same civil rights. I hope that you will issue a correction. Mark Smith Hamilton, N.J. Editor's Note: In the story, the words "original motion" referring to paragraph three dropped out of the text, as did the amended motion. The Layman Online regrets the error. The irony of selling to Muslims property consecrated to the worship of God November 29, 2006 Oh, the irony of Trinity Presbyterian's sale of the facilities that housed the former First Presbyterian Church of Bossier City, La. They sold church property that had been consecrated to the worship and glorification of the Triune God who created the universe under the presumption that Christians and Muslims "worship the same God, the God of Abraham," despite the fact that Muslims repudiate the doctrine of the Trinity and believe that God is not only of one being, but also of one personality. And they had the audacity to name their new congregation Trinity Presbyterian. Loren Golden Overland Park, Kan. Did church consider the religious viewpoint of the potential buyers? November 29, 2006 If we put aside all other questions and only consider the right of a congregation to sell property without the approval of the presbytery, there are two issues: 1. The Book of Order says the following in G-8.0501:
2. Did the presbytery give permission for the sale of the property? The action of the presbytery in 2004 reads as follows:
As to the question of whether Trinity Presbyterian should or should not have sold the property to an Islamic organization, there may be questions of the laws of Louisiana: Does the law require that property be sold to the highest bidder? Was the Islamic organization the highest bidder? Does the law preclude religious organizations from making decisions on the sale of property based on theological grounds? If Trinity Presbyterian could have decided to sell to another Christian organization, did the congregation take the religious viewpoint of the potential buyers into consideration? We do not know the answer to these questions except for the statement by one of the pastors that the decision was based on the amount of money offered and the opportunity to engage in interfaith dialogue and friendship. Frankly, I disagree with the Office of the Stated Clerk. I do not believe that the presbytery's 2004 decision gave the Trinity Presbyterian Church explicit permission to sell the property. The decision on the sale should have come to a presbytery meeting for a vote. Finally, there is the curious sentence at the end of the presbytery's 2004 decision: "All property and assets of both churches shall become the property of Trinity Presbyterian Church." Does this suggest that the presbytery does not recognize the trust clause in chapter 8 of the Form of Government? I suspect not. Decisions of presbyteries are bound by the Book of Order. All statements must be interpreted within the meaning of the Book of Order. Of course, I am a mere pastor and not a lawyer…. Robert Campbell, pastor Tully Memorial Presbyterian Church Sharon Hill, Pa. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not the God of the Ishmaelites November 29, 2006 My heart sank when I read the headline, "Islamic symbol replaces cross after sale of PCUSA church." It is still aching and reeling from the cold-hearted deed. The people responsible for this have no spiritual discernment, and no discernment of the times in which we live. You notice that the "Christian" was considering studying the Koran and its language, but there was no reciprocal offer from the imams to study the Holy Bible. Also, the imams were quick to make sure the "Christian" would not try to convert their Muslim members, and the response from the "Christian" was, "I don't see a particular need to try to convert them to Christianity ... we are all children of Abraham. ..." These "Christians" say that we worship the same God, but they are so deceived. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not the God of the Ishmaelites. Be sure, the imams will try to convert the one who studies Islam with them. I predict that they won't have a very hard time of it. Chalk one up for Satan, but thank God, we know the rest of the story. Glenda Smith Asheville, N.C. Isn't the message of Christ and the Commandments about love? November 29, 2006 Loren Golden [letter to the editor, posted November 16, 2006] responds to my letter with the following:
Regarding money (the 8th Commandment), I will state that gambling doesn't seem to be a worthy pursuit for me personally. But since the 8th Commandment deals with stealing, I think technically anyone who lives in a capitalist society, as we all do, violates that if one wants to pursue Golden's logic. That is the heart and soul of capitalism, where we all focus on making money at the expense of others – in other words, stealing. Of course, I suspect some will say I'm taking that too literally. But am I? The bottom line, and my point originally, is that those who condemn certain persons so easily and think those persons are going to the pits probably aren't really looking in the mirror. It's easy to say sin is sin until one realizes that they are just as sinful in reality by using such logic or "interpretation." It seems to me that the real message is lost. Isn't the message of Christ and the Commandments about love? And the love is among fellow humans and God? So the question remains how can honest-to-goodness love between two persons who also love God be wrong regardless of their sex? It just doesn't make sense to condemn that. Golden does state: "Moreover, the homosexual lobby has yet to proffer incontrovertible evidence to substantiate their contention." OK, I must state as a homosexual and Christian that I haven't found conclusive evidence from the other camps that clearly supports their views. If there was, don't you think many would be climbing the fence to join? I think where the true message is lost is the explanation of how love doesn't matter if one wants to take Golden's view. It's contradictory from both a rational human view as well as a spiritual Christian view. Consider that my evidence. Earl C. Apel, member Mount Auburn Presbyterian Church Cincinnati, Ohio The world wasn't paying attention then , and it still isn't now November 29, 2006 Re: Islamic symbol replaces cross after sale of PCUSA church Somehow the world wasn't paying attention then, and it still isn't now. The attached short speech from Winston Churchill was delivered by him in 1899 when he was a young soldier and journalist:
Thorough examinations of our potential officers should be required of all November 27, 2006 Rev. Bart Roush [letter to the editor, posted November 21, 2006] asks a genuine question regarding sessions that he believes are being legalistic in saying they will strictly uphold G. 6-106b: Will they be willing to challenge bankers and lawyers about usury and "vexatious lawsuits." The easy answer should be, yes, by all means question bankers and lawyers about how their faith carries over into their careers. Now, Rev. Roush surely knows that most bankers have nothing to do with setting interest rates. And only a banker who works primarily in the bank/credit card department could most be accused of usury! The Rev. Roush apparently wants Biblical obedience to be either totally open to any individual interpretation or strictly limited to a literal meaning of the current definition of words in English translations of the Bible without reference to the full Biblical contexts. Set up false either/or 's and you get poor answers. We can be faithful both to Scripture and the confessions without such sophistric attempts at literalism. I'm tired of staw-man fundamentalists. True and thorough examinations of our potential officers should be required of all of our churches. And if there is a banker who is known or suspected of practicing unethical business practices, he or she should be questioned about it. As I said, they should be asked how their Christian faith plays a role in their life at work and at home. It is lamentable that officer questioning must become so much more invasive and personal, but so many people believe that they have a right to lead in the church despite be unwilling to follow Christ's Lordship in their lives at work or at home. We also know that no person can claim to be sinless as they seek leadership in the church. The key is, do they know that they are sinners, do they confess that they sin both willfully and unknowingly, and do they trust in God to forgive them and transform them? If they are then discovered to consistently and unrepentantly practicing something the Scriptures and confessions call sin, they should be asked to submit to church discipline with an eye toward repentance or eventually stripping of their ordination. There is a medium ground between re-writing Scripture and discounting the confessions and a wooden literalism. Scholars like Dr. Robert Gagnon point the way, as do a great many others I have been privileged to either read or study under. An untestable inner call of God is not sufficient for letting anyone be an officer or pastor in the Presbyterian Church. We are supposed to have calls confirmed by rigorous examination and the affirming votes of the membership. We must get away from the idea of holding office as a right and the mere "feeling" of a call as being sufficient. I would suggest the church has been too lenient in ordaining, not too strict. Rev. Scott Mackey Highland Presbyterian Church Tyler, Texas Neither Bible or Book of Confessions condemns all lawyers as 'vexatious' November 27, 2006 In his November 21, 2006, letter to The Layman, an ordained PCUSA pastor criticizes Calvin Presbyterian's session for its stated intent to uphold The Book of Confessions in ordination. Specifically, he impugns two groups of professionals in the process, questioning whether "self-acknowledged unrepentant bankers or lawyers" should be ordained, suggesting that they are in violation of the Eight Commandment, referencing The Larger Catechism, at Question 142. As a lawyer, I am used to seeing cheap shots taken at our profession, and I am equally used to checking facts before responding. So I double checked my Book of Confessions to see what it says about lawyers and bankers. Question 142 of the larger asks "What are the sins forbidden in the Eighth Commandment?" ("Thou shalt not steal") It lists many, including theft, robbery, man-stealing, receiving stolen property, fraudulent dealing, and others, including "vexatious lawsuits" and "usury." The Book of Confessions version that I have includes footnotes, and the one for "vexatious lawsuits" cites Proverbs 3:30. I looked it up – "Do not contend with a man without cause, if he has done you no harm." Black's Law dictionary defines "vexatious" as "without reasonable or probably cause or excuse." Webster's dictionary defines "vexatious" as "intending to harass." Neither the Bible, nor The Book of Confessions, nor our common use of language condemns all lawyers as "vexatious" as implied by Mr. Roush. Likewise, "usury" is a lot different than merely charging interest. (Usually defined as about 25 percent and higher). So what does this mean? Mr. Roush, if you truly have a lawyer in your church who is filing frivolous lawsuits without cause, intending only to harass opponents for the sake of vexing them, or if you have a banker charging illegal and usurious interest rates, and they acknowledge the behavior and will not repent, then please do not ordain them. Such conduct is not good, and should not be acceptable for ordained leaders of our church. The Bible tells us so. If you stick with a consistent application of the Biblical principles, its is all pretty clear. There is no prohibition in the Bible against the practice of law. But there are other prohibitions, clearly defined, which do preclude ordination. Think about that. Forrest Norman Ordained deacon and attorney at law Hudson, Ohio Calvin addressed usury in a concise, practical and theological perspective November 27, 2006 I'm certain that Rev Roush's question [letter to the editor, posted November 21, 2006] (as to whether Calvin United Presbyterian Church is prepared to withhold ordination of bankers and lawyers), was earnest, but I'm less certain about his understanding of the term usury. John Calvin addressed the issue of usury in a very concise, practical and theological perspective. Calvin knew that Hebrew had two words that were translated as "usury." The word, neshekh, meant "a bite." Alternatively, the word, tarbit (also, marbit, or alternatively, ribbit in later Hebrew), meant "to take (or receive) legitimate increase." Calvin's letter on usury in 1545 recognized and understood these distinctions. He thus argued that "biting" loans were a sin, but loans with interest, made for business purposes, were legitimate. Calvin expected that bankers were to make a profit with interest on loans made for business purposes, were to provide loans to the working poor without interest, and to those truly impoverished, loans should be given, not only without interest, but without expectation of principal repayment. So, based upon this solidly Presbyterian understanding of usury, Calvin United probably wouldn't take issue with ordaining a banker regarding this specific issue. Now, if the banker were an atheist, then he/she would probably have to move to San Antonio. As for "vexatious lawsuits," I think all good Presbyterians understand the sinful nature of such ... except for Pope Clifford and his team of lawyers. Charles Oliver Rockaway, N.J. Will session ordain those who watch sports on Sundays? November 27, 2006 I'd like to second Rev. Roush's letter of the 21st, and add another question: Will the session ordain people who watch football, golf or NASCAR on Sunday afternoon? Question 117 of the Longer Catechism (and Question 60 of the Shorter) make it clear that enjoying recreational activities like that on the Sabbath is a sinful violation of the Fourth Commandment. The Sabbath is only for "spending the whole time in the public and private exercises of God's worship, except so much as is to be taken up in the works of necessity and mercy." Meghan Foote Greeley, Colo. Can presbyteries authorize how they will fulfill constitution? November 27, 2006 Let me see if I understand this. I do have trouble with comprehending legal documents and legalese in general. So my question: Is it unconstitutional for presbyteries to authorize how they are going to fulfill the requirements of the constitution? If I am wrong, please give me some assistance. Daniel Hale Petersburg, Va. God gives us victory even in the dark hours November 27, 2006 Re: "Even in the darkest hours, a summons to thanksgiving" Great article! Thanks be to God who gives us the victory through Jesus Christ even in the dark hours when the world appears to overwhelm us and his Christ. James Logan Sr. McHenry, Md. Doubt self first – then turn to the self revealing truth of God November 27, 2006 Re: Couric blogs about sermon encouraging doubt. (scroll down for story.) I would be more concerned that people could end up at different ultimate destinations – especially if they are not fed a strong diet of the Christian Gospel. It has been my experience that those who encourage a theology of doubt would be best served by doubting self first – then turn to the self revealing truth of God to gain solid grounding. Was it Paul who said "For it is by grace through doubt that you have been saved?" Larry Froistad Rapid City, S.D. Is the church is burning as we fiddle? November 27, 2006 The Pope? It appears that the Presbyterian stated clerk has assumed the office of the Pope, PCUSA. The Reformation took care of that! Is the church is burning as we fiddle? Is anyone listening? Roy M. Williamson Winter Haven, Fla. Explain the difference between the church and the denomination November 27, 2006 I appreciate the heavy lifting of the tall church pastors and the loyal to the bitter dregs folks, but, will someone please take the time to explain the difference between the church and the denomination – are they exactly the same? And in Calvin's day, just exactly what was the historical context for his assessments? In some degree, someone must admit, there is a difference of apples and oranges here, in my not so humble opinion, we keep going over the same ground as evangelicals because we have a poorly understood doctrine of the Church. One of you professors of church history, especially American church history, should take the time to explain the American differences of the church and the denomination. I await with anticipation for such clarifications. John B. Stone Buying the way out of the PCUSA may be worse than passively staying put November 21, 2006 At the age of 67 my wife of 45 years and I have been active in several denominations depending on where we lived, and what churches were close and evangelistically active. These were Southern Baptist, Church of Christ, American Baptist, Nazarene and for the past year PCUSA. The last change was made because of a deep rift with us on the losing side in our last membership as American Baptists. We had moved earlier to one of our farms close to a very active rapidly growing country, PCUSA church which has probably the best minister of all of our years. At the time of joining, we were aware of the problems of the denomination but not to the extent we now know them. We remain appalled at this situation and will not continue to put up with it for very long. But, as somewhat recent members, I would like to suggest a possible alternative for churches contemplating pulling out of PCUSA. What would happen if we did the following: First, change the names of our churches to simply Presbyterian – remove any reference on signs, bulletins, letterheads, etc., to PCUSA. Second, cease any form whatsoever of monetary support of any level of PCUSA. Provide as an alternative for missional support unfettered donations to either the PCA or the EPC for mission support. Third, ignore any kind of participation in any governing body of PCUSA. It seems likely that, with the mixture of active withdrawals probable this winter plus many who would accomplish something like the above suggestion, the PCUSA will rapidly continue to wither just as the bush Jesus cursed withered and died. Then, at some juncture, when the governing group no longer has any size, money or lawyers (they demand to be paid I assume), the churches would quietly simply join actively whatever group they had been supporting for communal affiliation or some sort of local consortium. Maybe my long background as a Baptist, in which local bodies are essentially autonomous, has clouded my thinking in the hierarchial environment, but I do not like what I see on the horizon. I keep hearing rumors of buying our way out. To me that would be sinful, it would be paying ransom to basically a sinful body or roughly akin to the infamous 30 pieces of silver. This seems almost worse than passively staying put. Anyhow, this is the suggestion of an active member with many years of leadership in several denominations. John West Hillsdale, Ks. Why do we let Kirkpatrick get away with this duplicity? November 21, 2006 Where was Rev. Kirkpatrick's constitutional constitution when he was called upon to reconvene the 2002 General Assembly that was rightly and duly reconvened when over 50 delegates requested it? If memory serves me correctly, he claimed impotence in actually enforcing the constitution. Poor Rev. Abu-Akel was left holding the dirty laundry. Why do we let this man get away with this duplicity? Dan McConnell, elder Canal Street Presbyterian Church New Orleans, La. Anderson had ulterior motives in participating with PUP task force November 21, 2006 The arrival of "backdoor" theology and justification has made its entrance known. By watering down the standards of our faith-based church, the "backdoor" is a welcome mat to all who do not want to be held accountable to the Book of Order's ordinational requirements. To say that Anderson had ulterior motives as he questionably participated on the Theological Task Force on Peace, Unity and Purity, is putting it mildly. What a farce this is turning into, yet it was predicted by many of us two decades before all this got out of hand. No wonder our church's voice is unreceptive to those who are spiritually thirsty to hear a sound of hope. Rev. Gilbert J. Fitzsimmons, Ph.D. Pittsburgh, Pa. Kirkpatrick is destroying a once-great denomination with a wonderful history November 21, 2006 The first Presbyterian Pope. Yep. Pope Clifford. Cracking down on the unruly throngs always works, right? His encyclical – or more precisely, his papal bull – is no surprise, except to those who may have held out hope that Pope Clifford was listening to all his parishioners. This is just one more stumble on the road to infamy. How did we get stuck with this guy? I sure didn't vote for him. Does he realize he's single-handedly destroying a once-great denomination with a wonderful history? Perhaps a legacy doesn't matter if you've been given such a lofty blessing, and you get to walk in front of everyone else and wear robes that are fancier than anyone else's – but any way you count it ... his name is mud ... or maybe even Torquemada. We might as well acknowledge it. The PCUSA is dead. Killed by Pope Clifford's scepter. Let's call it what it is – PCDOA. Jack O'Brien Pittsburgh, Pa. O, for one to say: 'My statement of faith follows Jesus who names God Father' November 21, 2006 Last Tuesday an inquirer was presented for candidacy by my presbytery's Committee on Preparation for Ministry. The packet included a personal statement of faith, written by the young man, which drew comment even though an examination for becoming a candidate is not supposed to stray into regions theological. Specifically, it was noted that this individual had used masculine pronouns throughout his declaration of belief. "What," intoned his questioner (a male clergy person), "do you think about the female aspect of the divine?" The young man responded with a politically correct song and dance to the tune of "Mother, We Adore Thee;" so, he was able to pass muster here in Eastminster. Back at my home church, I am preaching through Hebrews, verse by verse, in our praise service; and through Luke, passage by passage, at our traditional worship hour. On Sunday, this brought me to Hebrews 12:25a: "See to it that you do not refuse him who is speaking;" and Luke 10:38-11:4, where the one thing needed is to "[sit] at the Lord's feet and [listen] to his teaching." O, for a candidate for ordination who would say to my questioning brother: "The Bible says that I am 'not' to 'refuse him who is speaking,' even my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Jesus himself, also instructs me that the 'one necessary thing' is to '[sit] at [his] feet and [listen] to his teaching.' The very next thing that Luke records Jesus teaching, after bringing home this point, is that 'When [I] pray, [I am to] say: "Father, your name is holy."' "My statement of faith follows this teaching of Jesus, who, in all the gospel record, always and only names God with this one name: 'Father.' Yes, God is neither male nor female, as we comprehend the genders. For humankind to add up to the very image of God, the Lord created them 'male and female' (Genesis 1:27). There are times when I and every believer should rejoice that God deigns to mother me (Isaiah 66:13); but this truth does not abrogate the teaching of Jesus which challenges me, individually, and all of us, together, to plumb the depths of this equal, awesome truth that God chooses to relate to us, each and all, as our Father in heaven. "'It is he that has made us, and not we ourselves' (Pslam 100:3). Knowing the full consequence of his action, God our Father chose to sire us. By his own design we are each 'fearfully and wonderfully made' (Psalm 139:14), chosen in Christ 'before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him' – before our Father in heaven (Ephesians 1:4). In my ministry and in my life of discipleship, I intend to do and say everything I can to make my Daddy proud. "You, good sir, can be a 'momma's boy' if you want. I will seek to serve, and to teach others also to serve, in blessing "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort" (2 Corinthians 1:3). He is my God, and there are no other gods before him (Exodus 20:3). His name, the name by which Jesus Christ names him: 'Father,' his name is holy. "My statement of faith is a small attempt to revere God by the name I learn at the feet of Jesus: 'Father.'" No doubt such a soliloquy will be a long time reaching my ears, for it seems doubtful that our present, politically correct, denominational context would breed a candidate of this ilk in the foreseeable future. I think that this is a sad state to which we have come. However, an amused smile creeps across my tear-stained face, when those who, like my fellow presbyter, stand on the floor of presbytery to defend the cause of recognizing the female aspect of the divine are also the first on their feet to champion the right to ordain avowed, practicing homosexuals. I am stricken with a chord of wry irony, by the blatant anomaly that the boldest defenders of the truth that it takes male and female together to even begin adding up to the very image of God, go on to appoint themselves prosecutors for the case that male on male or female on female sexual relations are something other than a base defilement of that figure of God in which we were all created. Opposites joined in the holy and wholly covenanted conjugation of marriage between one man and one woman are the mystic, ultimate expression of the image of God on earth (Genesis 1:27-28b, 2:24). This is a mystery so profound that it is pictured to perfection only in the intimate, integral relationship between Christ Jesus and his bride: the church (Ephesians 5:25-32). Two men or two women so entwined provide but a perverse presumption on the divine paradigm; a gross, graphic apery of God's image – an abomination before the Lord (Leviticus 18:22). How laughably odd, that those who are first and loudest to insist that we should honor God's female facet should be last to apprehend the truth that ordaining a man's right to stand in (or rather, lie down) for a woman in sexual union with another man constitutes a swinish, shameless rape of that very aspect of God's image. Ordaining self-professed, sexually active gays and lesbians to office in the church is a flaming, flagrant fraud on the truth that the female is an irreplaceable, unexpendable, essential dimension of the divine. Jim Henkel, NWAC endorsing church pastor North Benton Presbyterian Church North Benton, Ohio, Eastminster Presbytery Will session withhold from ordaining bankers and lawyers along with gays? November 21, 2006 In a recent letter [posted November 20, 2006], Elder Dave Ramsey from Calvin United Presbyterian Church shared a resolution passed by the session of Calvin United Church stated in part, "the session of Calvin United Presbyterian Church of Scottdale, PA has declared and made it a policy that when a person is to be ordained or installed as Minister of the Word and Sacrament, elder, or deacon there will be no deviation from the Book of Order." The statement then quotes the now very familiar section of the Book of Order, G-6.0106b which ends with the (maybe not so familiar) words, "Persons refusing to repent of any self-acknowledged practice which the confessions call sin shall not be ordained and/or installed as deacons, elders, or ministers of the Word and Sacrament." I wonder if the session of Calvin United is prepared to withhold ordination or installation from any potential or current deacons or elders because they are in the banking industry, or are involved in a lawsuit? I am sure there are some self-acknowledged unrepentant bankers or lawyers in the congregation. Clearly there are practices and behavior taken by bankers and lawyers that are a violation of the eighth commandment as specified in the Larger Catechism of the Westminster Confession of Faith. See question 142 which includes "usury" and "vexatious lawsuits" as one of the many sins forbidden in the eighth commandment. This is just one commandment, and only two examples of a described sin. Imagine how long this list might be. To be clear, I do not ask this question in jest, it is an earnest question. If the session is going to be this legalistic, this is exactly the type of questions they may have to face. Rev. Bart Roush Geneva, Ill. Such lukewarm Christianity will be the ultimate demise of PCUSA November 20, 2006 I find it inconceivable that within our historic church of faith and doctrine that presbyteries attempting to abide by the Book of Order might be chastised and/or "ordered" to comply with a minority voice which is definitely in contradiction to the Book of Order. The complaint is requesting that "big brother/sister" become a co-conspirator in the undermining of this great church. Such lukewarm Christianity, the governance of which is "political correctness" and not the ulterior motive of serving Christ within a faith-based church, will be the ultimate demise of this church, on the one hand, and the rise in membership in such affiliations as the Reformed Presbyterian Church. To give ultimate weight to "authoritative interpretations" to a GA top-heavy with liberal minded, lukewarm Christians, is not the greatest guidance that could be given to the local churches via the presbyteries. In addition, for many, like myself, the referral to the thoughts of Clifton Kirkpatrick is counter-productive to the life of this our church. His ideas are definitely biased to a preconceived concept of a political theology which hinges on the ideations of the '60s and '70s in which accountability is idiosyncratically focused. Of course, all mob mentalities rely on likeness of same thoughts. What about the silent majority that affirms the faith statements of our creeds and resultant guidelines of the Book of Order without referrals to obfuscations and technicalities? Just recently, in Pittsburgh Presbytery, a minister's officiating at a "same-sex" marriage was not even heard due to a "timing" disorder with the case being dismissed. This minister who affronted the church by contemptuously denying the rights of the Book of Order pertaining to "same-sex" marriages by an ordained Presbyterian minister, relied upon that at which she scoffed to create an atmosphere of pseudo-liberation for herself and others of similar mindsets. For those who choose not to be accountable to the essentials of the Reformed faith need to know that there are always fellowships in which their ministries could be welcomed with open arms. The remedial complaints are unfounded and need to be dismissed in a prompt manner. Reaffirmation of the essentials of the church without a quasi-interpretation from a GA body which did more harm to the church than good. The Rev. Gilbert J. Fitzsimmons, Ph.D. Pittsburgh, Pa. Theological incoherence seems to be enshrined in PCUSA November 20, 2006 I could have predicted this. Presbyteries that are trying to affirm specific standards of ordination are being hauled into court. Unfortunately, they may well lose on the "merits," because theological incoherence seems to be enshrined in our denomination. It is not surprising that Stated Clerk Clifton Kirkpatrick would write that it is unacceptable for presbyteries to do the following:
This is quite ridiculous and an indication of why our fellowship is disintegrating before our eyes ... leaving aside such absurdities as the "acquittal" of Rev. Janet Edwards for performing a lesbian "wedding" that incorporated non-Christian elements in the liturgy. I believe we give the impression of being an ungoverned playground with all the children running wild. John Erthein, pastor Elderton Presbyterian Church A presbytery can scruple G-6, but not pledge to abide by it? November 20, 2006 Do I understand this? It is alright for a presbytery to have a "scruple" concerning G-6 and ordain a homosexual but it is wrong for a presbytery to pledge to abide by G-6. Through the looking glass and into Alice in Wonderland. Pete Simpson Bloomington, MN Achtemeier is caught up in the ways of the world and not in the ways of Christ November 20, 2006 I am a graduate of the University of Dubuque Theological seminary and had the honor, at the time, of studying Christian Theology at the feet of the Rev. Dr. Mark Achtemeier. When I was studying for the ministry, I saw him as a guiding light in the orthodox realm of Reformed faith. I remember the times I would go to his office and talk about what it meant to be an evangelical Presbyterian. I believed him to be a man who held on to the tenents of the reformers like Luther and Calvin, but it now seems that he has been caught up in the ways of the world and not in the ways of Christ. I am not a man who quotes Scripture to prove my point, but as Presbyterians we need to make the Scriptures the final authority to what we believe and teach concerning the Christian faith. I am not a minister in an influential church, or the kind of minister who is involved in the politics of the church, or even a minister who graduated at the top of his class, but I am a minister who loves the revealed Christ as described in the Holy Bible. As Reformed Christians, we historically believed that the buck stops with the Word of God. It is from Scripture that the final answer is to be drawn. Issues like homosexuality, the Lordship of Christ, and the authority of the Bible need to be talked about with the confessions in one hand and the Scriptures in the other. I believe that Calvin, Knox, Edwards and the like are shedding tears for us because they paved the way for the truth and we have let the roads they paved become full of potholes. I will continue to pray for the health of our church. Rev. Kenneth H. Perreault, Jr. At-Large member of the Upper Ohio Valley Presbytery Ample reason to pray for Robins' salvation and her soul November 20, 2006 Alas, Rev. Nuri Robins may deny the Truth inherent in Christ because of her own life's experience. If, as she indicates, she is a pastor by vocation, and if her ordination is PCUSA, she has consistently met inadequate Committees on Preparation for Ministry, Committees on Ministry, Committees on Candidate Care and seminary faculties. According to her own testimony, she has also missed any encounter with the risen Lord. There are ample reasons to wonder why she sought ordination, by what carelessness in the church she obtained it, and how she has kept it; and there is ample reason to pray for her salvation and her soul. Perhaps, while we exercise meeting the floor with our knees, we should pray that salvation would visit a church that would ordain the lady. Pray, too, for those, including myself, who now find it necessary to know God and to work out our salvation apart from the Presbyterian Church (USA) into which we were born, and through which we learned the faith and were nourished us in it. Wendell L. Webster 'I am the Way, the Truth and the Life' November 20, 2006 Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one cometh to the Father except by Me." If Ms. Robins believes otherwise, perhaps she does so at her own eternal peril. If she convinces others to believe similarly, that may be even worse! Bob May, inactive elder Salem Presbyterian Church Limestone, Tenn. GA is willing to destroy the PCUSA with it peace, unity and purity agenda November 20, 2006 I have recently read the PUP and this article mirrors the PUP in that the General Assembly is speaking in circles and contradicting itself over and over. The General Assembly seems to be very willing to destroy the PCUSA with it peace, unity and purity agenda that is a contradiction in and of itself. I am an officer of the PCUSA and am strongly considering renouncing my membership. Bruce Thompson Indianapolis, Ind. Action was a stay of enforcement and not a complaint November 20, 2006 Your article concerning the Presbytery of the Mid South is erroneous. The action of the group was a stay of enforcement and not a complaint as you reported. You must immediately print a retraction to your report or find yourself once reporting information that is only intended to cause further division and not nearly representative of the body of Christ. I continue to pray daily for your healing. LindaJo McKim At Calvin United, the Trinity is Father, Son and Holy Spirit November 20, 2006 In addition to the Third Presbyterian Church in Uniontown, the Calvin United Presbyterian Church of Scottdale, Pa., has sent this letter to the Redstone Presbytery.
Calvin United Presbyterian Church |
|
| November
2006 letters, page 2 Home · News · PLC Publications · The Layman Online Reviews · Archives· History of the Lay Committee · Feedback · Links |