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sins appear before God with an equal magnitude of rebellious
distastefulness January 23, 2007 Re: Meghan Foote's letter to the editor, posted Jan. 18, 2007 It seems that you make several errors in your examination of my letter in reply to one of Earl Apel's. One, I nowhere addressed Paul's passage in Romans 8. It was Mr. Apel who suggested that Christian theology could be reduced to an "His Eye is On the Sparrow" simplicity. And you also avoided the gist of my question to Mr. Apel, which is what about human sinfulness in all of its enormity? It is easiest for humans to see it when it reaches the magnitude of genocidal murder as with a Hitler or a Stalin, but for those of a truly Biblical turn of mind, all sins appear before God with an equal magnitude of rebellious distastefulness. So much so, that unrepentant sinners are said by no less an authority than Jesus himself to be cut off from God and cast into outer darkness. Jesus made a habit of teaching about behaviors that could exceed death in their horror, and that exclusion was most often a choice of a person otherwise loved by God and invited into his kingdom. Some resist the invitation to begin with, others accept the invitation, but will not wear the wedding garment of a regenerated heart and transformed behavior and ethics that the ruler expects. There is a context to the "us" you reference in Paul's passage in Romans. It is those who are in Christ Jesus. A homosexual, or even a mass murderer, who accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior by faith given through the power of the Holy Spirit is indeed in Christ and, therefore, nothing in all creation can separate that person from the love of God in Christ Jesus. That being said, the power of the Spirit should be evident within said person, to bring about a regenerate nature and a transformed way of life. Not that such a person could or would be perfect, but that one would begin to agree with God about what was and was not appropriate behavior and try more and more to do the former while seeking to abstain more and more from the latter. Failures are inevitable, and confession and forgiveness is the continual duty of every Christian and, thus, are prominent in most Reformed worship services. A repentant murderer who fails and murders again, or who as a part of his/her redemption surrenders to the authorities for the first murders, would still be liable to the punishments of law here on earth. Similarly, limits might be placed by the church on those afflicted with same-sex attractions or especially those who indulge those attractions habitually, as to the ability to hold church offices or positions of responsibility within the church whether ordained or not (such as teaching Sunday school classes). This does not mean that said persons will not be ultimately saved by the grace of God in Jesus Christ, just as all who will be saved must be. But it is one thing to say a person is saved by the grace of God in Jesus Christ, and quite another to say that all a person is, does, and ever has done is saved just because God loves everyone in his creation. Christ died so that sins of every magnitude might be judged, but one has to acknowledge that Christ died for his or her sins, too. That means learning what those sins are by God's definition (and not our own) and, having come to recognize those things as sin, confessing them and repenting of them by faith in and as a loving response to Christ's death on the cross for them. Sin does still matter. God's grace can overcome it, but not so that we may sin all the more so that grace may abound all the more. No, grace also comes as a transforming agent in the person of the Spirit, to begin a transformation that will take a lifetime, but begins to conform human beings into the image of the sinless Jesus Christ. And a part of that transformation includes learning what God considers sin and learning to be obedient to God's teaching of how life should be lived. Rev. Scott Mackey Highland Presbyterian Church Tyler, Texas The confessions and the Bible offer some very good advice January 23, 2007 I thank Russ Westbrook [letter to the editor, posted Jan. 18, 2007] for giving some clarification on how the confession and catechisms comprise a significant portion of the PCA Constitution. I was also relieved to hear that Catholics are allowed to marry Protestants since my uncle, a Protestant, married my aunt, a Catholic, several years ago. I love my aunt dearly and remember attending Mass sometime ago with her and actually feeling comfortable there and appreciating how she values that. Mr. Westbrook notes from the Westminster Confession: "It is lawful for all sorts of people to marry, who are able with judgment to give their consent. Yet it is the duty of Christians to marry only in the Lord. And therefore such as profess the true Reformed religion should not marry with infidels, papists, or other idolaters: neither should such as are godly be unequally yoked, by marrying with such as are notoriously wicked in their life, or maintain damnable heresies." OK, I still don't get the point. Any Christian it seems to me has no problem marrying "only in the Lord." Otherwise, why go to all the trouble and fuss of having a church wedding? But then if one wanted to be completely technical about it, I suspect a good number of marriages performed in both the PCUSA and PCA are done so because the two persons love each other and want to express this in public and even go to the trouble of having counseling. Are they really serious about it or not, I think, is the question? I always like to take the higher road and believe they have the passion and goodness to want a relationship that is blessed by God. Otherwise, why bother? And the bottom line is at a ceremony, the crowd in attendance are witnesses and even take an oath, in a sense. If a person attends that and gives the semblance of approval when that is not in his/her heart, isn't that in a sense lying and being wicked and encouraging heresy? And if the minister doesn't make sure all are pure of heart in the ceremony and respect it as a Christian act, doesn't the minister also engage in wicked acts and heresy? I expect that, in reality, one could make the case that most if not all weddings are not valid based on the finer details in taking the literal words and ignoring the spirit. Don't get me wrong. I think the confessions offer some very good advice, just as the Bible does. The problem is in how we just like to ignore the forest and just focus on the trees. It's easy to focus on a rotting tree and not realize the vibrance that takes place around that. Of course, a rotting tree in the end does give life to something else. Isn't that wonderful to know? Earl C. Apel, member Mount Auburn Presbyterian Church Cincinnati, Ohio The church is the movement to be supported, not the next protest march January 18, 2007 Clifton Kirkpatrick concluded his letter of greetings to the "Social Justice Biennial Conference" in New Orleans with the charge: "may you return from this experience to launch a movement for justice, peace and human well-being in the Presbyterian Church (USA) and in the world in which we live." I have good news: Such a movement has already been launched, oh, about 2,000 years ago! Jesus Christ came preaching the good news of the Kingdom of God, and it is a movement for justice, peace and human well-being that is far beyond anything we Presbyterians might try to cobble together after some conference. Presbyterian Action for Faith and Freedom, a committee of the Institute on Religion and Democracy, has long held that "the most powerful message the church can deliver to any society is simply the Gospel of Jesus Christ." The movement to be supported and furthered is God's Church, living out the full implications of the Gospel, both in helping bring lives into conformity with the will of God and in relieving injustice and suffering wherever they are found. The church is the movement to be supported, not the next protest march or non-negotiable demand to be generated from a political movement we launch out of human hubris. James D. Berkley Presbyterian Action Director Bellevue, Wash. Is it time for networks to re-think their existence? January 18, 2007 I read with interest the impact of reduced funding on many of the network agencies enabled by PHEWA:
As we consider the impact of this alleged "crisis," may I recommend that we apply a reasoned measurement? Let's ask these questions (thanks to the Rev. Dr. J.E. Tuckett) about each of the networks above:
Rev. Jim Yearsley Tampa, Fla. Thank you for coverage of the social justice conference January 18, 2007 Thank you for your coverage in The Layman Online of the panel discussion at the PHEWA conference. I wanted to note a correction – I currently am not the associate pastor at Lakeview Presbyterian Church. I had been the associate pastor there, until recently accepting the position I now hold with the Presbytery of South Louisiana. I want to thank you for helping us share the message about the realities still faced in rebuilding the ministries of congregations and their communities here in South Louisiana. Jean Marie Peacock Associate Presbyter (Pro Tem) for Congregational Development and Disaster Recovery Presbytery of South Louisiana Editor's Note: The article has been corrected. The Layman Online regrets the error. Reporting from New Orleans on PHEWA conference January 18, 2007 I appreciated it! Walter B. Funk Charleston, W.V. Thanks for the articles on social justice conference January 18, 2007 I want to thank you for the various articles I have seen at The Layman Online site reporting on the events and presentations at the PHEWA conference in New Orleans. I appreciate the content and the tone of the articles, and have commended them in an e-mail note to the pastors and clerks of our presbytery. Thanks again! Alan Cutter General Presbyter Presbytery of South Louisiana Enjoyed coverage of the conference in New Orleans January 18, 2007 I enjoyed your coverage of the conference in New Orleans this past weekend. One thing that jumped out at me was in the article on Rev. Linthicum's talk. The church he mentioned is correctly spelled La Verne Heights, two words in La Verne not one. The church Web site is www.lvhpc.org. Minor, but for the record. Thanks and blessings. Steve Salyards San Gabriel Presbytery PCUSA budget cuts are finally impacting the liberal agenda January 18, 2007 Corporate CEOs know how to get control of organizations and the programs within them – take away the money! Could it be that, after the last G.A. approved a change in ordination standards was sent to the presbyteries and soundly defeated 73 to27, that something changed? Could it be that the people are saying let's see what they can do with no money? Finally, the impact of no money is being realized at Louisville. This is a good start, but not enough! There needs to be a complete house cleaning in Louisville – every employee who denies the unique Lordship of Jesus Christ, his being sent from God the Father, his atoning death, his victorious resurrection and the authentic witness of his apostles and prophets should be dismissed, even if that means shuttering the whole place! Thank God for the sensitivity and brotherly love shown by the New Wineskins to recognize that some will stay in the PCUSA, fighting, hoping to win. Congregations have made a good start in that fight by redirecting, designating and (yes) withholding money from Louisville. This grass-roots clean-up effort needs to be intensified at the congregational, presbytery and synod level. It needs to be done soon so that the work of the body of Christ, so long placed on hold by warding off the attacks of the evil one, can be done. Some of us will soon be in that number and it will be too large to count. Others need to know who Jesus is and the power of his resurrection before they meet him in person. There is much to be done; time for us is surely short, and Christ will not delay his coming forever. As PCUSA budget cuts are finally impacting the liberal agenda, we can be sure that "birds" from the same flock that produced "The Louisville Papers" will make sure that evangelical staff hiding at Louisville will be the first to be dismissed. It is my prayer that evangelical congregations will offer assistance to our brethren (brothers and sisters) "caught behind enemy lines." The denomination has had a campaign to remove and/or discourage militant hymns; it has had an effect. We have become impotent for Christ. One dear brother mused that he was in favor of "staying and fighting," but he had not seen a fist balled up on the conservative side. We should have pressed the battle after the rejection of the constitutional amendment, but it may not be too late. With the cross of Jesus before us, press the battle on! James Logan Sr. McHenry, Md. Factual error in Coalition's analysis January 18, 2007 The Coalition's paper contains a factual error. Their item (3) - "Allows presbytery pre-emptive authority in dissolving pastoral relationships" - is not a new authority. The present BOO is not particularly obvious about the power of a presbytery to dissolve pastoral relationship without a request. The index leads one to G-9.0503a.(4) that says "no [administrative] commission shall have the power to dissolve a pastoral relationship unless such power has been specifically delegated by its appointed body." The presbytery's authority to dissolve is spelled out in G-11.0103o, shown below (emphasis added): "o. to establish the pastoral relationship and to dissolve it at the request of one or both of the parties, or when it finds that the church's mission under the Word imperatively demands it;" The proposed change reads (emphasis added): "G-14.0511 Permanent Pastoral Relations "A permanent pastoral relationship of pastor or associate pastor, full or part-time, is established by vote of the presbytery or its committee on ministry to approve the call to a minister of the Word and Sacrament elected by vote of the congregation. A pastor or associate pastor is installed by the presbytery and is a member of the session. The call approved by the presbytery cannot be changed or dissolved except by consent of the presbytery, at the request of the pastor or associate pastor, at the request of the church by action of the congregation, or when the presbytery, after consultation with the minister and the congregation, finds that the church's mission under the Word imperatively demands it." The change introduced by this proposal generalizes the requirement placed on administrative commissions in G-9.0505b(2) to meet with the congregation when empowered to dissolve a pastoral relationship and chooses to exercise that power. While it is still the decision of the presbytery or its administrative commission, the decision is appeasable and a presbytery should be prepared to justify its action. In my opinion, the proposed wording would be a deterrent to the examples of abuse of this authority. The content of the "advisory handbook" appears to be the statement of processes to be followed rather than requirements that must be met. I haven't done a complete analysis of what text from the current BOO has been "left on the floor" in the proposed rewrite, but this seems to be the case. It would be helpful to have an example of a requirement in the present BOO that is being lost. The current BOO makes a number of provisions for certified Christian educators (as distinguished from certified associate Christian educators: 1) Parity of pastoral calls and calls to certified Christian educators [G-11.0103]; 2) Enrollment by the stated clerk [G-11.0407]; 3) Access to the COM [G-11.0503]; 4) The privilege of the floor of presbytery with voice [G- 14.0705c.]. To me, it seems reasonable that they should have made the same commitment made by others with the privilege of floor and that their service of recognition would include the constitutional questions. The downside is that the inclusion of the constitutional questions in the service of recognition can be viewed as "inching" toward the establishment of a fourth ordained office. G.A. 217 referred this question to the Office of Theology and Worship for inclusion in an ongoing study on the "relationship between Baptism and the ministry of all church members both ordained and not ordained." It is unfortunate that the proposed G-14.0330i.(5) was not a separate amendment. This would not have had the impact of trying to "unbundle" the proposed changes. This leaves presbyters with the difficult decision of whether the church should lose two years in the streamlining of Chapter 14 on this point. Hopefully, the Office of Theology and Worship will have completed the study referenced above and the denomination will be able to study the subject. Doug Baird 2004 article has been corrected January 18, 2007 Re: Committee members repeat old arguments on ordination issue I have been misrepresented in the article noted in the subject line on your online publication, The Layman. I am not, and have never been a student at any seminary, and I feel as though my words have been used out of context and that I have been misrepresented. I respectfully request that this article be removed from the Web site, or modified to correct the mistakes. Please provide your prompt response. Brandon Rothey Editor's note: The "Roll of Participants: 216th General Assembly (2004)," published by the PCUSA, lists Rothey as a youth advisory delegate from Pittsburgh Presbytery. The Layman Online has corrected the article and regrets the error that misidentified him as "a youth advisory delegate and student at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary." Some exhibits in NWAC's report will only be available in written form January 18, 2007 Some readers may note that the electronic version of the NWAC Strategy Team Report does not contain all of the exhibits listed in the table of contents of the appendix. Because they were unavailable in electronic form, many of the exhibits listed in the appendix to the report are not included in the Web site version. They will be part of the written report distributed to delegates at the Orlando convocation. Michael R. McCarty Elder-Member NWAC Strategy Team Confession and catechisms comprise most significant portion of PCA constitution January 18, 2007 Earl C. Apel's letter [posted Jan. 11, 2007] misses the relationship in the PCA with the Westminster Confession of Faith. The confession and catechisms comprise the first (and most significant) portion of our constitution, and they state plainly: "It is lawful for all sorts of people to marry, who are able with judgment to give their consent. Yet it is the duty of Christians to marry only in the Lord. And therefore such as profess the true reformed religion should not marry with infidels, papists, or other idolaters: neither should such as are godly be unequally yoked, by marrying with such as are notoriously wicked in their life, or maintain damnable heresies." WCF XXIV, 3. In the Presbytery of Iowa in which I serve, it became an issue some years ago: What this passage meant? Did this forbid the marriage of Protestant Christians to Catholics? General Assembly said in no uncertain terms it did indeed mean this and, given such a stance in the PCA on so politically incorrect issue as that (which is, in fact, the obvious meaning of the language nevertheless), it is hard to imagine Apel's conjectures having any actual substance. Pastor Russ Westbrook, teaching elder Riverside Presbyterian Church, PCA Linn Grove, Iowa he Needing a scorecard to keep up January 18, 2007 Re: Rev. Scott R. Mackey's Jan. 16, 2007, letter to the editor "God must love everyone regardless of their sin. After all, his eye is on the sparrow. A Hitler or a Stalin, did God love them as parts of his creation regardless of the millions they were responsible for having killed and, if so, was God's love meaningless in that it did not save a Hitler or a Stalin from a meaningful justice?" So, the parts of Romans where people think Paul spoke against homosexuality are vitally important, but the part where Paul explicitly said that nothing in all of creation can separate us from the love of God are simplistic and wrong? Is there someplace where I can get a scorecard to tell me which parts of the Bible I'm supposed to hold on to so tenaciously that I should be willing to leave the denomination over them and which ones I can dismiss with a rhetorical flick of the wrist? Meghan Foote Greeley, Colo. Comment almost out of context unless you are a far-left Democrat January 18, 2007 Good old Cliff. A wise word to New Orleans and, by the way, an opportunity to trash the Republicans – "killing fields of Iraq." Why did he include that – almost out of context unless you are a far-left Democrat who has just come into heaven (hog that is) with 2007! Why do we keep this guy? Kermit Gay Orlando, Fla. Eastminster Presbytery again delays vote on upholding ordination standards January 16, 2007 By a vote of 45 to 34, Eastminster Presbytery took action on Jan. 9 to once again postpone a decision on upholding the current ordination standards of the Book of Order. Seven of the presbytery's 54 congregations sponsored the request to maintain the standards, which was received on first reading in September. The second reading for action was postponed in November to the January meeting. The request asks commissioners to "Establish as the policy of Eastminster Presbytery that in every particular case all the standards for ordination and installation to church office in the Form of Government, including the requirement that deacons, elders and ministers 'live either in fidelity within the covenant of marriage between a man and a woman or in chastity in singleness' (G-6.0106b) shall be treated as essential" and "that this body shall neither offer nor accept any scruple about or exception to the constitutional standards." It goes on to specify how this policy is to be written into the Presbytery Manual of Operations and communicated to the membership. A vote on the request is now delayed to a date not later than the December 2007 meeting. The postponement is to allow time for "sufficient discernment through worship, community building, study and collaborative work ... about ordination standards for and the examination of ministers, elders and deacons." The rationale supporting postponement argued that the request "proposes an immediate and single position on a topic of disagreement, when, in fact, we need to learn more about various positions on 'essentials' and 'scruples' before we examine and ordain candidates." Said rationale also insisted that the request "prohibits actions by future presbytery meetings," increases "the already growing fears of candidates" that they "will face a veritable inquisition," and ignores the recommendation "to follow the example of the Task Force on Peace, Unity and Purity" in undertaking a season of discernment. These arguments were offered to bolster the motion to postpone, in spite of the fact that the request to uphold ordination standards was not up for discussion. No matter, that request was still painted as narrow, prohibitive, scary, non-compliant and close-minded. As attested by the division of the house, such an "immediate and single position" portrayal proved a rather unique exercise in "community building," to say the least. Two of the seven sessions that sponsored the request did not wait to witness presbytery's delay tactic. Both the Stow and Hudson Presbyterian churches took action to disaffiliate from the Presbyterian Church (USA) in October; perhaps they discerned the handwriting on the wall even at that early date. Eastminster Presbytery's delay of a decision on this matter leaves open the possibility of concluding that the ordination standards in the Form of Government are not essential. Instead of the stability sought by the seven-session request, the issue is left up in the air until the ordered season of discernment has run its course or until the December stated meeting, whichever comes first. It promises to be a long year in Eastminster. In the short term, there is an interesting convocation set to meet in Orlando less than a month from now. The New Wineskins Association of Churches promises a broad range of options for consideration by the duly elected representatives of member congregations. Perhaps a little something can be found in Florida to spice up a season of discernment in Northeast Ohio. After all, we Buckeyes have already learned that Gators bite hard and don't let go until victory has been won. Jim Henkel, NWAC endorsing church pastor North Benton Presbyterian Church North Benton, Ohio, Eastminster Presbytery Another reason for leaving the PCUSA January 16, 2007 Our youth director surprised us with his resignation. He said when the PUP report was passed, it was time to find a denomination faithful to Scripture. He has found such a church in another state. We have invested heavily in our youth program in revamping facilities and providing a Wednesday evening program with food, music and Bible study. This has been successful in attracting un-churched teens and their parents. His wife also contributed greatly to our youth program. With their departure in February, many of these young people and their families will look elsewhere. This is another reason for leaving the PCUSA. Jack Vanderbleek, elder Northeast Presbyterian Church St. Petersburg, Fla. Proposed Chapter 14 changes must be rejected by the presbyteries January 16, 2007 I appreciate the article that you published from the Presbyterian Coalition regarding proposed amendments to Chapter 14 of the Book of Order that are being sent to the presbyteries for approval. I hope that everyone recognizes that if these amendments to Chapter 14 of the Book of Order are passed by a majority of the presbyteries, what happened at First Presbyterian Church in Hollywood would be just a prelude to what will happen in the future to many congregations. Liberal and even some moderate presbyteries will dissolve the pastoral relationships between more evangelical pastors and their congregations without any consultation with that congregation. If this passes, it will have a chilling effect on great evangelical ministries in the PCUSA that affect hundreds of thousands of PCUSA members. The left should recognize that conservative-leaning presbyteries may do the same thing to very liberal pastors. No one wins under this scenario. It will increase the divisiveness, anger and bitterness that are becoming more and more a part of our denomination. This is why I favor a two-synod structure as the answer. The left has accomplished one thing: The good news of what Jesus Christ has done for us on the cross, and of his resurrection, our redemption through his blood and sanctification through his Word, is lost amid fears of the midnight phone call to terminate the pastoral relationship. Proposed Chapter 14 changes must be rejected by the presbyteries. In addition, the presbyteries should hold a vote of "No Confidence" in this stated clerk. Every congregation should be putting money and assets aside in an unrelated corporate entity established by session members, and should be reading Lloyd Lunceford's book, should the worst case scenario come to pass. Through all of this, we all know that the Lord is faithful and he is who he says he is. The Lord Jesus Christ be with you in spirit. John Almquist The Layman and IRD never have any sense of irony January 16, 2007 In reading your story on the Institute on Religion and Democracy (IRD) and its recent publication of a report criticizing the NCC for its partnerships with foundations, I wonder once again why it is that groups such as The Layman and IRD, who seem to encourage division and disunity among Christians, almost never have any sense of irony. The IRD publishes an extensive and expensive report critical of the NCC for working with foundations, and The Layman supports the report on its Web site. Yet, the list of secular foundations working with the NCC and cited by IRD are mainstream and non-partisan, either broadly based (e.g., Kellogg) or with a narrower policy interest shared by the NCC (Sierra Club). The religious foundations such as Partnership for the Environment have Catholic, Jewish and evangelical ties in addition to the NCC. Meanwhile, the IRD is able to publish reports such as this using funding from recognized very partisan foundations Scaife, Coors and others. David Carothers Harrisonburg, Va. Kirkpatrick focusing on extraneous matters while ignoring the tough issues January 16, 2007 I think that is fascinating that Stated Clerk Clifton Kirkpatrick is so tireless in his efforts to secure the human rights of tomato pickers, while remaining so oblivious to the fact that his denomination is going to hell in a hand basket. While I was a layman working in a secular business office, I watched incompetent managers behave the same way: Focus on extraneous matters that are easily handled, while ignoring the tough issues. Actually, a church should be concerned with social justice, but maybe it shouldn't be a top priority when the denomination is itself disintegrating. We Presbyterians should remember where we came from. Our ancestors came from Scotland and Ireland, where they slept in stone cottages with thatched roofs, ate haggis and probably slept with the sheep and the border collie. Ten generations later, an American Presbyterian is somebody who drives a Lexus, tells time with a Rolex and carries an Ipod everywhere. I suspect the descendents of today's tomato pickers will have the same experience, with or without Kirkpatrick's intervention. The following is a parody of a Burger King television commercial from the 1980s:
African Bible College Lilongwe, Malawi No wonder we are in the mess we're in January 16, 2007 Regrettably, two prime examples of shoddy, sloppy thinking were in the most recent batch of letters posted to your Web site Jan. 11. The first is John Shuck's "pot calling the kettle black" comment regarding IRD, the NCC and their sources of funding. Does not Shuck see the difference between these two organizations – that the NCC purports to represent the Christian churches and denominations of the USA, while the IRD never claims to be anything other than a think tank and watchdog organization? How thick is his thinking here? Shuck compares apples to oranges – a classic category blunder on his part. The second is Earl Apel's deconstruction of the PCA's Book of Church Order. He states there is nothing in that book's guidelines that would prohibit the marriage between a Christian and a Buddhist. Far be it from me to defend the PCA, but it seems that "Christians should marry in the Lord" is pretty forthright and clear. It is hard, isn't it, to say that you are marrying in the Lord when you're marrying someone of a different religious faith, with completely different ideas of God, humanity, sin and the like? Then to add insult to injury, he puts the "man/woman" clause against the "peace and comfort of the families" clause, saying they cancel one another out. Sheesh! With this kind of creative thinking and interpretation being practiced here, two things come to mind: 1) No wonder we are in the mess we're in if we can twist meaning so. 2) Remind me never to sign a contract with them. Rev. Dr. Clay J. Brown, pastor First Presbyterian Church Mooresville, N.C. Marry 'in the Lord' means that a Christian should marry a Christian January 16, 2007 Earl C. Apel misses an important phrase in the PCA Book of Church Order in his Jan. 11 letter. Section 59-2 of that document says that Christians should marry "in the Lord." The language echoes 1 Corinthians 7:39 and is understood by all Biblical Christians to mean that a Christian should marry a Christian. By no means does the PCA book fail to specify common Christian faith as the norm for Christians who marry. Ken Ironside Baltimore, Md. Presbytery has the power now to change the life of your congregation January 16, 2007 A specific concern raised by the Presbyterian Coalition on changes to the Book of Order resonates with me personally. Your article states: "The Coalition said that the 'expanded powers of the presbytery, woven throughout the proposed changes and paired with the proposed amendments to G-14, strengthen the power of a presbytery.'" It said giving presbyteries the "power to 'pre-emptively' dissolve a pastoral relationship when neither the pastor nor the congregation had requested it raises the possibility for chilling scenarios." I can personally understand very well the abuse of power that a presbytery can cause on a congregation. This abuse of power does not come about from proposed changes in the Book of Order, but did so a few years ago in Cincinnati. The presbytery removed the pastor of Mount Auburn Presbyterian Church without his asking to do so or the congregation asking for that. It was a very simple matter on the surface and just a simple vote. So, the bottom line is the presbytery has the power now to change the life of your congregation forever with just a simple vote. And, yes, it is quite chilling. The good news is that Mount Auburn came through all of that despite the pain. So, here is the bottom line. Quite frankly, I think some in the so-called Coalition effectively used the powers of the presbytery to separate my congregation from our pastor. And now they seem to say this is all wrong. But I don't think they remember their past doings, unless they have repented of this or just have a bad memory. And maybe I'm wrong about my perception. The answer is so simple. Just seek to follow Jesus and his example of loving all persons and wanting them to know God personally. Quite frankly, that night for me was horrible when my pastor, Steve Van Kuiken, was removed from my church by the presbytery. I will always have great appreciation for what he did for me and others in my congregation. My message is simple. Get real. Removal is very easy from any presbytery to any church. I realize that there are issues of concern by those in the Coalition that need to be addressed. I don't want to disregard that. But if one wants to talk like they are being oppressed or will be punished, just remember there are those of us that don't agree on all things but know what it is like to be punished. Quite frankly, I think we have more to agree on than to disagree. I guess that is why I take the trouble to even write about this in this forum. Earl C. Apel, member Mount Auburn Presbyterian Church Cincinnati, Ohio Attempts at a simplistic universalism are not cures to legalism January 16, 2007 Bless you, Earl. [letter to the editor, posted Jan. 11.] You live in such a simplistic world! Because the PCA's Book of Church Order does not explicitly prohibit a mixed marriage between a Christian and a non-Christian, then he assumes it must be lawful. And I suppose a couple of mixed faiths might take the PCA to a secular court and force them to allow their marriage in a PCA church by claiming that no such explicit prohibition exists. It is remarkable to me how people can take the obvious intentions of a book of church polity, which are to provide a means to harmonize faith and practice through organizational structures, forms and standards and entice out penumbras of meaning from the silence on specifics despite a clear general intention. Doubtless, the assumptions of the PCA's Book of Church Order were for marriages of Christians. It is a mark of our times and of the decline of unity of faith which once bound together people of Christian denominations that now require massive written constitutions of polity because they must make explicit so much that once was implicit in the nature of a Christian church. How often has the Book of Order of the PCUSA had to be amended to expressly forbid or positively enjoined churches to do what once would have been common knowledge? As for the simplicity of the "His Eye is on the Sparrow" theology, if God's love and concern for all his creation is the paramount thing, then sin is nothing. God must love everyone regardless of their sin. After all, his eye is on the sparrow. A Hitler or a Stalin, did God love them as parts of his creation regardless of the millions they were responsible for having killed and, if so, was God's love meaningless in that it did not save a Hitler or a Stalin from a meaningful justice? It may be possible to argue that God has a way of disciplining sinners which still somehow preserves their integrity, free will and their eternal destiny – by a doctrine like purgatory – but that still begs the question of the seriousness of sin. How one squares purgatory with the theology of the cross has not been convincingly explained to me, but regardless of the relative durations of a purgation process for different sins, all such durations would be negligible compared to eternal life after purgation. A purgatorial atonement would, in effect, seem to make all sins relatively inconsequential. Yet, that is not what Scripture teaches. It is not what Jesus himself warned concerning sin. Jesus taught that an offending body part that caused one to sin was better cut off than become a cause for keeping one out of the kingdom of God. It sounds like Jesus believed sin was serious because it could lead to an eternal banishment from the eternal kingdom of God. It may sound loving to allow anyone to do as they please, especially if you can get them to believe that Jesus brought them the love of God and, if they say and feel the right things about him, then they will be blessed eternally. But if some behaviors that people engage in can indeed leave them eternally separated from God and the kingdom of his Christ, then real love would tell them the truth and encourage them in word and deeds (like withholding ordained office) to forsake all such behaviors. All attempts of church discipline risk excessive legalism, which is why so much used to be implicit in our church constitutions. But attempts at relativisim or a simplistic universalism are not cures to legalism, merely its opposite antinomianism. Earl, there is much left undreamt of in your philosophy. Rev. Scott R. Mackey Highland Presbyterian Church Tyler, Texas 45 years later, the big news is the NCC is a left-leaning political outfit January 11, 2007 The IRD report reminds me that, in 1962, St Mark's Episcopal Church in Shreveport, La., issued a 15,000-word report resulting from their study of the NCC. They could not find any difference between the positions of the NCC and the planks in the platform of the Communist Party USA. They asked the denomination to assure that not a dime of their money go to the NCC. Now, 45 years later, the big news is the NCC is a left-leaning political outfit. WOW! I'm shocked? Fred Edwards God bless all who follow Jesus and not this strange new religion January 11, 2007 By the grace of God I can be counted as an ex-Episcopalian and we are moving forward with a new Anglican church under a Bolivian bishop with great joy and thanksgiving. I only wish I had done this long ago! God bless all the faithful who understand the need to follow Jesus and not this strange new religion that is coming from all of the liberal mainline seminaries. BettyLee Payne Louisville, Ky. (Anglican) Pot calls the kettle black? January 11, 2007 The pot calls the kettle black? I find it ironic that the IRD criticizes the NCC for its sources of funding. IRD might be more credible if they revealed the sources of their funding. See Media Transparency for some of the politically conservative organizations that fund IRD at a million bucks per year. John Shuck Elizabethton, Tenn. Sometimes, statistics don't tell the whole story January 11, 2007 Being in Africa, it takes awhile for things from the States to get to me. I just received the November hard copy issue of The Layman yesterday. I noticed that it contained a chart comparing the PCUSA, the PCA and the EPC. There was something under the EPC column that I think needs clarification. The chart gives figures for the period 2000-2005. It shows that the number of EPC congregations decreased from 188 to 180, although membership increased by two percent. The reason for the apparent decrease in the number of churches is that they used to count a number of churches in Argentina, known collectively as the "St. Andrew Presbytery." It was during the relevant time period that those Argentine churches were dismissed to form an autonomous Argentine Presbyterian denomination. The fact that the EPC still managed to grow by two percent is, I think, remarkable. Sometimes, statistics don't tell the whole story. Rev. Dr. Larry Brown African Bible College Lilongwe, Malawi Too many pastors believe in peace and good order at any price January 11, 2007 Re: Layman letter concerning presbyteries approving resolutions to uphold ordination standards. Such a resolution was sent by my church, Northeast Presbyterian in St. Petersburg, to the Tampa Bay Presbytery, but I doubt it will be acted on or approved. For some months, our congregation has been educated on the deceitful PUP report and actions by the last G.A. Next Sunday, a congregational meeting will be held to explain why our church should leave the denomination and affiliate with the EPC. Next month, a congregational meeting will be held to vote on it. Sadly, there seems to be little concern, except in The Layman, that the impending crisis of confidence in the PCUSA will lead to any corrective action. As a 40-year Presbyterian, I have watched the discarding of Biblical standards in favor of worldly values. I firmly believe that there are too many pastors who believe in peace and good order at any price and who will go along to get along. Jack Vanderbleek, elder Northeast Presbyterian Church St. Petersburg, Fla. No explicit prohibition against mixed marriages of faith in PCA January 11, 2007 Ray Dunsworth notes in his letter [posted January 8, 2007]: "WCF 24.3 notes that 'it is lawful for all sorts of people to marry who are able with judgment to give their consent. Yet it is the duty of Christians to marry only in the Lord.' Rev. Edwards, by performing a marriage between a professing Christian and a practicing Buddhist, has enabled a professing Christian to be unequally yoked with an idolater." Since Mr. Dunsworth noted his connection with the PCA, I decided to see what the Book of Church Order in the PCA says about the subject. Here is the content:
It seems to me that the Rev. Edwards actually fulfills the PCA requirements perfectly. Even though 59-3 mentions the man/woman, it seems to me the "peace and comfort of the families" clause in 59-6 might overrule that. So, why raise a fuss about one of the persons being a Buddhist who is being married? Mr. Dunsworth notes the importance of details, but then seems to overlook other details just as important. When it comes to details, I always remember a very fine song, His Eye Is On The Sparrow. The message talks about how God even loves and pays attention to the sparrow and so we know that God loves us as well. It's that personal relationship between humans and God that are the details that really matter. Regarding idols, it seems to me any more so many make an idol out of marriage with all the fuss. What is so amazing is how marriage does not have such a great success rate with both Christians and non-Christians. Who are the real idol worshipers here? Earl C. Apel, member, Mount Auburn Presbyterian Church Cincinnati, Ohio Some helpful guiding precepts on whether to stay or leave the PCUSA January 11, 2007 Many of us have struggled with whether to stay and fight or abandon the PCUSA and embrace another denomination. As painful as that decision is, here are some helpful guiding precepts. If you feel the PCUSA is headed in the wrong direction but that, as an institution, it is still open to guidance and still seeking God's will through Scripture; if you feel that your view is heard and has a chance of prevailing, then it is necessary to stay and fight. If, however, you feel the PCUSA is headed in the wrong direction and the controlling majority is committed to that path; if because of the political realities a change back to your view is not realistically possible; if your voice is no longer effective and you are falling silent; if the easiest and most comfortable course is to stay and secretly pray that God will intervene, then it is definitely time to leave. Indeed, having come to that realization, it may be a sin to stay. John Cowan Cartersville, Ga. We can get stem cells from somewhere else than by killing human embryos January 11, 2007 According to a story by Lee Bowman of the Scripps News Service, "Scientists have derived a new source of stem cells from the (amniotic) fluid ... and have used them to develop muscle, bone, fat, blood vessel, nerve and liver cells in the laboratory." (Rocky Mountain News, Jan. 8, 2007, page 22A) While the actual development of various specific cells may very well be "new," everybody who has followed the controversies concerning stem cell research knows that stem cells are found not in just embryos, but can be found in living adults, children, babies, the umbilical cord and the placenta. There's even a lab that collects children's baby teeth from which they can get stem cells from the pulp of the tooth. But this "new" development in actually developing and growing specific cells (muscle, nerve, bone, etc.) from stem cells from the amniotic fluid should be a good thing, right? We can get stem cells from somewhere other than embryos, do research, find cures and everyone is happy, right? Apparently not. After reading the story in the paper, I went onto the Internet – and I was not at all surprised by what I read. While some people looked at this new development in the positive, non-controversial way of getting stem cells, doing research and finding cures; others simply changed the subject and took the opportunity to bash Bush, bash Bush's policies, bash the war in Iraq, bash pro-lifers, bash religious zealots, bash those who have a love affair with embryos that are going to be destroyed anyway, and bash anything and everything instead of focusing on the issue: We can get stem cells -- useful stem cells – from somewhere else than an embryo. Currently, there are about 80 diseases or conditions that are currently being treated with treatments that are a direct result of stem cell research using adult stem cells. Currently, there are zero (none, zilch) diseases or conditions being treated as a direct result of embryonic stem cell research. That's 80-0. That fact alone should be telling us where we should be spending our time, our efforts, our money and our tax dollars – and it's in non-embryonic stem cell research. Apparently, there are at least two problems with using stem cells from embryos. (1) For whatever reason, the cells tend to grow uncontrollably -- akin to a tumor. While such a "cure" may be better than the original condition or disease, more often the result will be replacing one problem with a far worse one. (2) Embryonic stem cells are "person specific" – and the recipient may have to take anti-rejection drugs for the rest of their life. So far, adult stem cells don't seem to have that "uncontrollable growth" problem as much. (2) If you use your own adult stem cells, anti-rejection drugs aren't needed. That's one of the reasons some labs will collect and store the umbilical cord or baby teeth – for future treatment of future medical problems using your own adult stem cells. Today, every advance being made in stem cell research is being made using non-embryonic stem cells. But instead of being happy that useful stem cells can be found somewhere else than in embryos, typical liberals seem to be unhappy. Why? Why is it that (when they are confronted with the facts that proves that non-embryonic stem cell research has made, is making, and probably will make far more useful advances in stem cell research than embryonic stem cell research has, is, or will) the typical liberal gets so defensive – so offensively defensive – that they have to change the subject, bash Bush, bash pro-lifers, bash the war, bash this and bash that? Do they hate being proven wrong? Do they hate having to admit that they -- and both Clintons and much of the Democratic leadership – could be wrong? Exactly what is their fascination with killing embryos to get stem cells that are currently useless while they bash those whose policies are currently getting stem cells that are currently useful (80-0)? Focus on the issue: We can get stem cells from somewhere else than by killing human embryos. That should be a good thing, that should be a happy thing. That should make everyone happy and joyful. But read and listen to how the liberals respond to the "joy" that this new development in amniotic stem cell research brings. Liberals will change the subject and liberals will bash. While non-liberals will be rejoicing and will be happy that this new development may bring even more cures and treatments, the liberals won't be. Liberals are unhappy when their pride and joy – embryonic stem cell research – is once again proven to be unnecessary and useless. Robert E. Forman Lakewood, Colo. 'It has become unconstitutional to enforce the constitution' January 8, 2007 So, the Synod of the Trinity has issued a stay of enforcement against Pittsburgh Presbytery, which voted to require that the constitutional ban on the ordination of gays be enforced. In other words, in the PCUSA, it has become unconstitutional to enforce the constitution. Toto, we're not in Kansas anymore. Rev. Dr. Larry Brown African Bible College Lilongwe, Malawi 'What? How dare you enforce standards completely!' January 8, 2007 Essentially, the Permanent Judicial Commission of the Synod of the Trinity, by issuing the stay of enforcement against Pittsburgh Presbytery, is saying: "What? How dare you enforce standards completely!" I guess I need to look up the definition of what a standard is. Is a standard optional? If all standards are optional, and if it is now a standard that standards are optional, then isn't the standard to not enforce standards optional too? How silly is this getting? Kevin T. Smith No Longer a Member of PCUSA Disheartened by The Layman's obsolete views on evangelism January 8, 2007 Grace to you, and peace, in the name of Jesus Christ our risen Lord! I often read your paper when it comes to me in the midst of piles of other mail that has been unsolicited. Usually, I note that so many of your articles are negative or reactionary. Very rarely do I find anything hopeful that has originated with your writers or reporters. In a recent issue, I read of the congregations which combined and sold one property to an Islamic group. I can understand sadness at the circumstances which required a church to close. I can even understand dismay over the transformation of a church into a mosque. I was disheartened, however, by The Layman's obsolete views on evangelism. The old ways of sharing the gospel cannot suffice any more. The defensiveness of peoples who have been shown time and again the sin of the Christian church, and who have heard the message of the cross many times in relation to their own suffering at the hands of believers, require a new humility in the faithful of our day. We must love God and love our neighbor as ourselves, and we must be patient enough to build relationships with those who differ from us. We must be willing to be long-suffering, as God is, and witness to the gospel so clearly in our lives that we cause others to ask us about the hope we have in us. Nothing less is worthy of the one whom we serve. Please take a longer view. God always has. Rev. Anne Campbell The Layman will not be the same without him January 8, 2007 John Adams will be missed not so much for being an unbiased reporter and a guardian of the truth, but because he a skillful apologist for the conservative agenda. He has consistently and skillfully woven his message into reporting current events with unmatched energy. Always on message, first to the punch, and unflinching in the face of the consequences, he is a conservative first and a Christian second. He is a highly skilled propagandist and should be acknowledged as such. In an art that is truly difficult to master, his is a rare talent indeed. I salute him. The Layman will not be the same without him. Ritchie Jones Los Angeles, Calif. Not noticing the 'smaller' things that are still important to God January 8, 2007 While it is bad that the Rev. Janet Edwards performed a wedding service for a lesbian couple, it is also noteworthy that she violated the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Scriptures on another point, by marrying a Presbyterian to a practicing Buddhist. WCF 24.3 notes that "it is lawful for all sorts of people to marry who are able with judgment to give their consent. Yet it is the duty of Christians to marry only in the Lord." Rev. Edwards, by performing a marriage between a professing Christian and a practicing Buddhist, has enabled a professing Christian to be unequally yoked with an idolater. One of the dangers of being in a liberal-dominated church is that so many bad things are happening that we don't notice the "smaller" things that are still important to God. Ray Dunsworth RE, Faith Reformed Church (PCA) Erie, Pa. 'We must follow the admonition of Revelation 3:16' January 8, 2007 If the Synod of the Trinity insists on being lukewarm with regard to ordination standards, then we must follow the admonition of Revelation 3:16. Jack O'Brien, elder (PCUSA) Pittsburgh, Pa. Leave PCUSA immediately and don't look back January 8, 2007 Re: Possibility of mass exodus from PCUSA has heightened My wife and I did not wait to see what action our session was going to take about the heresy invading and pervading the PCUSA -- we left. We now attend a Baptist church near our home with sound Reformed and Biblical teaching. In fact, we have heard more Reformed theology issue from the pulpit on one Sunday than we did for all the combined 40-years we were in the PCUSA. My advice to any who are wavering about whether or not to leave the PCUSA is to leave immediately and don't look back. Larry Langley Are the dates confused? January 8, 2007 Why is "Sanctity of Life Sunday" on a Tuesday? Meghan Foote Greeley, Colo. Editor's Note: "Sanctity of Life Sunday" will be held Sunday, Jan. 21. The Layman Online regrets the error in the original story. Layman distorted the truth to foment schism January 8, 2007 Your statement concerning the number of persons who signed the Stay of Enforcement in the Presbytery of the Mid-South was correct at 44. However, the number who voted against the overture was 41. Once again you have distorted the truth to foment schism and lies throughout Christ's church. I continue to pray for your salvation. Linda Jo McKim Adams' professionalism will be difficult to replace January 3, 2007 As I have been reading and using The Layman Online for only about five years and was unaware of John Adams' previous career, I was of the opinion that Mr. Adams must be about 35 to 40 years old and was an anomaly in the field of journalism. I thought he was younger because of the energy and exuberance of his writing style and his obvious travel schedule. He writes with such a voice of clarity and a devotion to thoroughness that few journalists in any publication write with today. And on the last two days of his tour of duty on the good ship Layman, he is writing as though he were fresh to the job. He is not phoning it in. He is doing it beyond what most journeymen for other newspapers or magazines do. His article on Thomas T. "Tom" Taylor is written with the detail of someone looking for more assignments, not retiring. John Adams is a more energetic, more durable and more capable reporter than most any journalist I have ever read. It is apparent in every article that he writes with the highest sense of integrity, responsibility and thoroughness. He doesn't leave nagging questions dangling in the reader's mind and he gives the subject of the news story every opportunity to acquit him or herself in the best possible light. To learn now for the first time that Adams studied languages of the Bible doesn't surprise me. I thought his knowledge of the issues and his coverage of theology meant he was obviously a seminary graduate, perhaps a former pastor, which I now learn he is not. He is one of the best models of a "Layman" that I have seen or read in my lifetime. The word "journalist" is an often pretentious word when used to describe most people employed in the information business. Anyone from a sports junkie to scatterbrained pundits on cable news shows like to refer to themselves as journalists, just because they get a paycheck from a news outlet. Few, if any, deserve that lofty designation. I would hope that John – known as Jack – would take some opportunity to teach others the methodology that he employed so well. He is a journalist in the very best sense of the professional title. He ought to be a college professor. I will really miss John Adams' contributions to The Layman Online. Because of his high standard of writing and his devotion to getting the full story, The Layman Online is one of the most dependable and necessary Web sites available to any Christian. I know others at The Layman will pick up the trail, but it won't be easy to duplicate John Adams as a servant of the profession and servant of the Lord. Philip Pettus San Gabriel, Calif. PCUSA doesn't seem to appreciate the grip of sin and need of a Savior January 3, 2007 Hopefully, Tom Taylor can bring some sanity to the PCUSA. I note with some trepidation his quote, though: "'I thought the church was made up of prostitutes and drunks,' he says, describing the cultural milieu where his father ministered." Does he actually believe that our church is not filled with worse? Not because our rampant homosexual sin and heresy is more perverse than drunkenness or prostitution per se, but because we no longer see any of these things as a problem but, rather, cause for celebration. I suppose we do have better architecture, wardrobes and deodorant to keep we Presbyterian sinners perfumed and in gilded cages. We don't seem to still appreciate Tom's father's grasp – however askew we might think it at times – of the dark grip of sin and the absolute necessity of a Savior. Godspeed to Rev. Taylor. I'm only sorry his father's not around to lend his input these days. If we can have denominational consultants who can't even offer up a credible Christian confession of faith, why not have hired Tom's dad as a consultant? It might be refreshing to hear from someone who served in the front line hellholes of a rescue mission instead of more refined "Presbyterian" digs. I fear our "union card" clergy would have "filed a grievance" if asked to serve where Rev. Taylor's father did. Martin Thompson Adams has been a faithful servant January 3, 2007 Jack Adams has been a faithful servant, a man of integrity, and a solid journalist. He deserves to enjoy the blessings God has prepared for him in retirement. L. Rus Howard Venetia, Pa. Faithful to Scripture … obedient to the Great Commission January 3, 2007 Thank you for the good coverage of Presbyterian events these last few years. I remember getting The Layman many years ago when I was growing up a child at home from my grandfather, who was a Methodist. His wife had been Presbyterian. I have been in the Presbyterian Church in America for 11 years now and have watched from a distance as the PCUSA has continued to drift from its historical commitment to Scripture, Reformed doctrine and evangelism. While this is not surprising in light of what Scripture teaches about mankind's propensity toward sin, it is always disappointing to see the truth and power of the Gospel disregarded. It is particularly so in light of the great and glorious heritage of Scriptural faithfulness and church piety that has historically characterized Presbyterianism. While I would not want to sense competition with our brothers in the EPC, the PCA also provides an avenue for churches that desire to pursue the peace, polity and purity of a denomination that is "faithful to Scripture, true to the Reformed faith and obedient to the Great Commission." By God's grace, the PCA does not seem to have moved one inch away from the Scriptural authority it was founded upon more 30 years ago. Thank you again for your many years of work. Scott Truax Cary, N.C. Pray that Taylor is not converted to his environment, but converts it January 3, 2007 This is the most positive thing that the G.A. staff has done for the cause of Christ in 20 years! In the long run, it will equal the repeal of PUP in importance. I don't know Tom Taylor, but he does not sound like the normal left/far left G.A. staff member. We need to pray that he is not converted to his environment, but converts it! Kermit Gay Commissioner G.A. 217 Pastor is glad Adams has retired January 3, 2007 Thank goodness John Adams is retiring. His one-sided, negative and very often untruthful reporting has served as an embarrassment to the church and as an impasse for the grace and love of Christ's inclusive message. His leaving the staff of The Layman could not have come soon enough! Rev. W. Robert Martin III Palo Alto, Calif. Editor's Note: The writer was a subject of several articles by Adams, including Heresy complaint seeks to forestall installation; Heresy charge raises key issue: Is belief in Jesus' bodily resurrection an essential tenet? and For PCUSA activists, it's not all about gays. |
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