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| January
2007 letters Archives of letters to the editor  |
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evangelicals go their way and the universalists go their way January 31, 2007 How refreshing and wonderful it is to see some churches take the stand to leave the PCUSA. This should have started 10 years ago, not now. In the article, Dr. Dan Sansbury, in speaking against the dismissal, says, "There are ways to look at all the positions and think differently." Well, factions of the denomination have been thinking differently for a long time without ever having any hope of thinking the same. So, I would say it is time to think anew and each go their own way. The Rev. Joe Martin asked them to vote against dismissal so the church and the denomination could have more time to talk. Talk about what? The dialogue has gone on, votes have been taken (three time,s no less) and nobody is listening! The bottom line is this: There will never be any agreement, there can't be. We are talking different theologies. There are those of us who believe and stand on sound doctrine and those who take the universalist approach. It is oil and water. Praise the Lord for Montreat, Signal Mountain and some of the others! The time for dialogue is over, it is now time to act in good conscience and dissolve the PCUSA. Let the evangelicals go their way and let the universalists go their way. The universalists could even start the PCU (Presbyterian Church of Universalists). Dave Anderson Allison Park, Pa. Which is it: 'The Word of God' or 'Nevertheless the words of men' January 31, 2007 Re: PCUSA pastor on the Resurrection: 'Maybe a body got up; I don't care …' Unfortunately, in the PCUSA, it is not surprising that a pastor dismisses the significance of Christ's resurrection. There is so much theological confusion in the denomination. Anything is up for debate, and the "essential tenets of the Reformed faith" can be anything you want them to be. The following demonstrates one core example. In the PCUSA, elders, deacons and ministers of the Word and sacrament must make this vow (from G-14.0207 (c)) in the Book of Order:
The Confession of 1967 states that:
Kevin T. Smith Once an elder Renounced jurisdiction of PCUSA in 2006 No goals for bringing peace into the Middle East January 31, 2007 Apparently, religious leaders like Rev. Dr. Clifton Kirkpatrick don't know that President George W. Bush has no capital now to even initiate a diplomatic peace effort in the Middle East. President Bush does not know the word "peace." I don't believe that President Bush nor his administration had any goals in bringing peace into the Middle East. There won't be any peace until our Lord comes back at the Second Coming. Charles Freeman Mississippi Thank you for your faithful support January 31, 2007 Thank you to the Lay Committee for your faithful support of the members of the PCUSA who are stressed by the non-Biblical positions embraced by our denomination. It appears that an inevitably painful and necessary separation must occur in the near future. The threat of the homosexual membership is relentless in its demands for leadership, and endorsement of their conduct has never been successfully addressed. The PUP report has buried the issues in a morass of political correctness and words with unclear meanings. Leadership by persons who vigorously uphold sinful conduct as acceptable and remain unrepentant can only lead, if continued, to the demise of the PCUSA as a part of the body of Christ in the world. Whenever I ask myself, "What if they're right and I am wrong?" I check back to Romans 1 and find the description of homosexual behavior so clear and its identification as sin so irrevocable that I rest comfortably in my confidence and trust in the living and written Word. BSF International also has been a great help through the study of Scripture and fellowship. Richard H. Sharrett, M.D. elder, Fanwood Presbyterian Church Presbytery of Elizabeth Article gives insight to the most important part of our work together January 31, 2007 What a great topic! Your article gives fresh insight and a sense of urgency to the most important part of our work together. I am so grateful for your ministry. I pray that God will richly bless your work as you proclaim the gospel. Brian Ahier Gateway Presbyterian Church The Dalles, Ore. Invite Bush to prayer meeting January 31, 2007 President Bush ought to ask to be invited to the prayer meeting these folks call – to do the actual praying for the peace of the Middle East. Perhaps once a week would be nice, maybe on Wednesday night, but I doubt it will happen. Fred Hopson Sacramento, Calif. A possible re-phrasing of sentence? January 31, 2007 You have "advocating for a congregation's withdrawal." I believe correct is "advocating a congregation's withdrawal" or "campaigning for a congregation's withdrawal." Andrew Fincke Editor's Note: The phrase in the story is verbatim from the letter sent by the Committee on Ministry. Worship Jesus in truth, not at the altar of those of misguided theology January 31, 2007 Jesus the Christ paid our ransom and we are free to worship him in truth, not at the altar of those of misguided theology. All PCUSA congregations will have to choose. I pray we will be faithful to the one who called us. Charlotte Edwards Cape Girardeau, Mo. Apology for my terse statement January 31, 2007 Ref: Is human life sanctified by the life giving Spirit or the life giving womb? Last week, I referred to this article as "gobblygoop." I have since reread the article and feel that an apology to Rev. Parks is in order. I must admit that I did not understand all the information. I am not a theologian and this article was way over my head. Anyway, Rev. Parks, please accept my apology for my terse statement. Bill Arthur Greenville, S.C. Presbytery will shut the door on congregations wishing to leave PCUSA January 29, 2007 While I add my prayers of praise and thanksgiving to God for the powerful moving of the Holy Spirit at the congregational meeting in Montreat on Jan. 21, my intercessions continue unabated for the preservation and safety of the members, elders and staff of that faithful church. Notwithstanding a "super" majority of 92 percent voting for dismissal, the Presbytery of Western North Carolina is poised to amend the "process" it approved only in October and effectively shut the door on any and all congregations that, like Montreat Presbyterian Church, have come to the conclusion that the only faithful thing to do is to leave the PCUSA. When the proposed amendment to the "process" passes at the PWNC meeting on the 27th in Asheville (as it is all but guaranteed to do), and a 2/3 vote of presbytery becomes the requirement to approve a congregation's request for dismissal, it will be virtually impossible for any church to leave. The presbytery's rationale, that such an important matter – a matter that so dramatically impacts the life of a congregation – demands a higher majority than the simple 50-percent plus one majority that was part of the "process" as originally approved by the presbytery in October of last year, rings hollow when one understands that by such action the presbytery is saying is doesn't care one little bit for the 92 percent of the people who have voted to leave. I have intentionally put "process" in quotation marks because when the outcome has been decided before the "process" even begins (as is clearly the presbytery's intent – no one is going to get permission to leave), the term is merely being employed as a glove is to cover a fist. I urge all faithful, evangelical and orthodox Presbyterians to go to the New Wineskins Association of Churches and read the strategy report. At a time when presbyteries, in submissive obedience to the repressive leadership coming from PCUSA headquarters as epitomized by "The Louisville Papers," seek to strike down congregations with gloved fists, it is time for us to come together to follow the Holy Spirit's leadership out of this denomination into the new thing God is doing. Rev. Jim Wilken Marion, N.C. Pastor openly and continually seeks to deny the Scriptures January 29, 2007 Re: PCUSA pastor on the Resurrection: 'Maybe a body got up; I don't care …' Is anyone really surprised by this? This man openly and continually seeks to deny the Scriptures and the Book of Order. Andrew McCaskill Excited by church's overwhelming vote to leave PCUSA January 29, 2007 I am excited that Montreat Presbyterian Church had an overwhelming vote to leave the PCUSA for the EPC. Whitney Alexander The issue is our reaction to God's love January 29, 2007 The issue is not God's love for us as stated in Meghan Foote's letter [posted Jan. 25, 2007]. It goes to our reaction to his love. Pharaoh comes to mind in the Old Testament, among others like Jesus' admonition in Matthew 7:13 in the New Testament. A clear example is in Romans 1:18-32, especially vv 24, 26, and 28. Pete Simpson Bloomington, Minn. PCUSA moved from reformed Christian church to Unitarian liberal church January 29, 2007 What is the status of the Presbytery of Pittsburgh's case, decided by the Synod of the Trinity? I hope that they have appealed this to the GAC Permanent Judicial Commission or, even better, under Title 15 of the Pennsylvania Corporations Code section 5793, which prohibits corporate officers in non-profit corporations from acting beyond the scope of their enumerated authority, to try to seek an injunction against the Synod of the Trinity. Our constitution, the Book of Order, sections G-11.0103, G-4.0300, G-8.0400, and G-8.0600, clearly gives the presbyteries original jurisdiction to decide ordination standards and individual congregation's property rights. So, why aren't we fighting? This is such a great church and we serve such a great and faithful Savior in Christ Jesus. We need to mount one last great fight for this denomination through the presbyteries adopting the Constitutional Presbyterians' ordination standards. Since the presbyteries have extraordinary authority under our constitution, relative to the entire structure of our denomination, they must exercise it and every church session should push for it. We always have the civil courts to turn to. If we fail, we can go to court to get an injunction and file for a declaratory judgment regarding title to the church's property. We need to attack the so-called trust itself, since the original grantors' intent was to establish an orthodox, Reformed Christian church, not a Unitarian church whose followers, by the way, borrow our language but, in fact, their doctrine of the Trinity, their "Jesus" seminar, and their sexuality standards reflect a group of very liberal Unitarians seeking something more out of life. Each state's attorney general is empowered by a set of statutes to protect a grantor's intent in regard to their gifts to non-profit organizations. Our original grantors (those who gave the money and built our individual churches), did not seek to establish Unitarian churches – their intent was to establish orthodox, Reformed Christian churches. The doctrine of "Cy Pres" exists to correct this by allowing assets to be transferred to organizations or denominations more in line with the grantor's original intent. Our leadership has moved us from an orthodox, Reformed Christian church to a liberal Unitarian church, intent on liberal good deeds, but that is where their similarity to Christianity ends. If need be, individual churches can get an injunction, file for a declaratory judgment regarding the title to their individual church's property, and attack the trust. This at least gets us into civil court and brings us under the protection of a civil court so that negotiations can take place in a safer setting to pay an exit fee to the presbytery. But, why not fight, one last great fight for this great denomination, that is built on a well-educated clergy, with outstanding education offered in our great educational institutions. Historically, this denomination has been politely left of center, but theologically right of center. Our denomination has been traveling the globe with missions and missionaries, and, at one time, maintained its spiritual integrity in Christ, in every part of life and in every step along the journey. We need to do that again. We need to go to the barricades one last time. Every session needs to push their presbytery to join the Constitutional Presbyterians and their ordination standards. If a two-synod church develops, we will still have improved our lot and our freedom and integrity in Christ. John Almquist Heaven is where God is, and hell is where he is not January 29, 2007 In reply to Meghan Foote of Greeley, Colo. [letter to the editor, posted Jan. 25, 2007], who wrote, "I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your point, but I guess I get nervous when someone suggests that there is something that a human can do that would cause God to stop loving them, even if that human being is Hitler or Saddam Hussein. ..." Everybody wants to talk about God's love without realizing that God is first holy, righteous, sovereign and just. Therefore, one of the greatest theological minds ever, Paul the apostle, has something to say to this writer's concern. It was insinuated by some that if God both planned a life and judged it, he might be judged himself to be unjust. Read Romans 9:11-29. Granted, it is one of those "hard to understand" writings of Paul that the Apostle Peter talked about, but notice what Peter went on to say about Paul's writings in II Peter 3:15-16. It is wicked people who do wicked things, and they will be cut off from God eternally and never know his love again. God loves, but they will not know it. Hell is a real place, according to Scripture, and it is the extreme opposite of heaven. Heaven is where God is, and hell is where he is not. God is love and light, good, kind, merciful, long-suffering, etc., but if you refuse to know and love him, you will not be in the "congregation of the righteous" or believers. What can God's love do for those who have played their part as God, and gone the way of Satan himself? Scripture also says that believers should separate themselves from unbelievers, and as Psalm 2 says, "Blessed is the man that stands not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor sits in the seat of the scornful, but his delight will be in the law of the Lord day and night ... but the ungodly are not so ... the way of the ungodly will perish. ..." At some point, Jesus said that the disciples were to shake the dust off their shoes from the households that would not receive their message of the gospel. Would you call this love? The one who is love said it. Hosea 9:15: All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolvers. 16: Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. Remember the news reports of Hitler who caused eight million Jews to be gassed, a horrible death, and used their bodies for many inhumane experiments, and caused them to become like walking skeletons, and Saddam Hussein and his sons and henchmen when you read this. I can only say if there was no hell, there would be no justice. Micah 3:1-4 – Malachi 1:1-3 It won't hurt any of us to remember what God hates. A little fear and trembling at his holiness, righteousness and justice is what the doctor should order for those who call themselves Christians today, yet have no sense of justice, and who do not hunger and thirst after God's righteousness, who call evil good and good evil, who put evil on the same level as good. Glenda Smith Asheville, N.C. May other PCUSA churches be as faithful and courageous as Montreat January 25, 2007 Congratulations to Montreat Presbyterian Church for seeking to be faithful to the Lord and to the Scriptures, rather than being concerned with it's property! I pray that your separation is one of peace and that the Lord would protect you from the wickedness of men seeking to subvert both the gospel and his Church. May other PCUSA churches seeking to be faithful to the Lord be as faithful and courageous. Andrew McCaskill New Covenant PCA Aiken, S.C. The world and Christendom at large is laughing at PCUSA January 25, 2007 Thank you for this article [Is human life sanctified by the life-giving Spirit or the life-giving womb?]. It is true that "the attending [GA] commissioners and others offered their prayers in the name of the triad "Mother, Child and womb." I was there. And speechless! There was more than a little eye-rolling and animated expressions of disbelief and disgust. People know when lines are crossed. More precisely, the presentation was closed, "In the name of the Mother, Child, and life-giving womb." And in case anyone is wondering if these things miss the observing or inquisitive eye of the world at large, we only need to have seen the forthcoming cartoon depicting a PCUSA General Assembly game show (Name That Trinity) where four panelists in turn offer as possible depictions of the Trinity: 1) Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, 2) Mother, Child, Womb, 3) Rock, Redeemer, Friend, and 4) Rock, Paper, Scissors. The caption, putting the proverbial icing on the cake, reads, "Bad news. We just got word that the Episcopalians are praying for us." In case it escapes us, the world laughs at us and we would be at pains not to understand that Christendom at large is doing the same. How is it that we as Presbyterians will have any credibility in the eyes of others with such things going on? We defend our tradition and denomination with all we have, only to have these things work against us. Be that be as it may, we're not giving up the fight against the progressive nonsense plaguing us. Rev. Steven L. Seng First Presbyterian Church Wellsburg, W.Va. Review relates to the nub of the problem of Christianity January 25, 2007 Jeff McDonald's review of the writings of P.T. Forsyth is the most important and fundamental piece The Layman Online has published in many months. It relates to the nub of the problem of Christianity in the Western world: How to express an honest reconciliation of the truths contained in the Bible, in criticism and in science that will "preach," and that honestly supports an enthusiastic and life-changing decision to follow Jesus, the Galilean carpenter, as God's revelation of himself. All else – all of our denominational squabbles, all of the particular outrages of the moment ("What's the big deal about Jesus?") – are secondary and symptomatic. John Robinson addressed this problem provocatively some 40 years ago in Honest to God, stirring up much commotion, but ultimately leading to no improvement in the way we talk about God and the authority of Scripture. Thoughtful evangelicals and conservatives should not feel smug while reading about Forsyth's analysis of liberalism's failure. Although orthodox theology as proclaimed by evangelicalism generates enthusiasm for many, it misses most members of today's irreligious population. Reagan Burch Memorial Drive Presbyterian Church Houston, Texas Column is called gobblygoop January 25, 2007 Ref: Is human life sanctified by the life-giving Spirit or the life-giving womb? Good grief, what gobblygoop! Bill Arthur Greenville, S.C. What is needed isn't a restructuring of bureaucracy, but a reformation of faith January 25, 2007 I see that Rev. Kearns says in essence that the General Assembly Council has responded to various task force initiatives by changing staff organization and governance structure. These are steps designed to preserve the functioning of a bureaucracy. Back in 1978, the Rev. Dr. David Moorefield of Presbyterian College taught a sociology course, in which I learned that "in the absence of other imperatives, the highest priority of a bureaucracy is to tend to the preservation of the bureaucracy." Instead of changing staff organization and governance structure, isn't it just about time for the GAC to look around and realize how alienated they have become from the Reformed, Biblical and Orthodox faith of our fathers? Perhaps what is most needed is not a restructuring of bureaucracy, but a reformation of faith? Jon Van Deventer Johns Island Presbyterian Church Marriage is the oneness of a man and a woman who commit themselves to God January 25, 2007 Mr. Apel's recent take on marriage [letter to the editor, posted Jan. 23, 2007] requires some gentle reform. He seems to think marriage amounts to no more than asking God's blessings upon a mutual exchange of good intentions. Good intentions make good relationships, according to Mr. Apel – even marriages. But marriage is not about good intentions, but the almost-sacramental oneness of a man and a woman who commit themselves to God's intentions for creation. That oneness cannot take place between two men, two women or two-or-more of either. That oneness alone – stripped of all ceremony and the sin-stained sexual politics of our particular culture – that is marriage. If good intentions and religious ceremonies are what GLBTs really want, then fine – let them have them! We just can't call them "marriages" – that definition is already taken and fully-well defined. As for good intentions, let us remain mindful of the destination for which they are the paving stones. Noel K. Anderson, executive pastor First Presbyterian Church Bakersfield, Calif. There are consequences to sin January 25, 2007 Re: Rev. Scott Mackey's Jan. 23, 2007 letter to the editor I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your point, but I guess I get nervous when someone suggests that there is something that a human can do that would cause God to stop loving them, even if that human being is Hitler or Saddam Hussein. Mainly, I get nervous because if there is a line that we can cross that will make God stop loving us, there's no reason for me to believe that I am on the good side of that line. I know that I am a sinner, and that I continue to be a sinner no matter how hard I try not to sin (if Luther couldn't do it, what hope do I have?) and, as you point out, in God's eyes all sins are the same. You say that Paul's "us" only applies to those who are in Christ, but I know that it is not our reaching out to God that makes us to be in Christ, but rather God's reaching out to us first. When I affirm the answer to the first question of the Heidelberg Catechism, saying, "That I belong – body and soul, in life and in death – not to myself but to my faithful Savior, Jesus Christ ..." I am not claiming that I have done something to make that true, but rather I am affirming a fundamental truth: All of creation belongs to God. It seems to me a natural consequence of my affirming a belief in God as the Sovereign Lord of all creation that I have to believe that everything in that creation belongs to God. Every plant, every rock, every star, every planet, every human, whether they acknowledge it or not, even if they fight against it with all of their strength, they still belong to God. It also seems to me that a consequence of the doctrine of the Trinity is that if they belong to God, that must mean that they belong to Christ. And if they belong to Christ, then they must be part of Paul's "us" and, therefore, there is nothing they can do to separate themselves from the love of God, Q.E.D. None of this means that there are no consequences to sin. One of the great themes of the Old Testament, repeated over and over again, is that Israel sins and those sins have consequences, but at no point do they stop belonging to God, and at no point does God stop caring about them. Meghan Foote Greeley, Colo. Thank you, Montreat, for making principle the main issue January 23, 2007 I simply want to express my deep admiration and thanksgiving for my brothers and sisters at Montreat Presbyterian! I wept tears of joy when I read the following statement in The Layman Online's report:
Please pray for your sister church just down the mountain from you. I will continue to pray for you in the days to come. Jane Neal Youth and Family Life Ministry Director First Presbyterian Church Marion, N.C. Moderator should read, then write her reaction to 'The Louisville Papers' January 23, 2007 In reviewing the recommendations of the New Wineskins Association of Churches with regard to those PCUSA congregations that disagree with the denomination's hard left turn, it is interesting to note that NWAC allows churches several options – to stay or to go – that they can consider while respecting Presbyterian polity and honoring their commitments to the authority both of the Word and of the denomination. These are each very plausible models that have to do with love and peace between brothers and sisters in Christ. As described by The Layman Online, the Montreat congregation's decision and the conduct of their process through this difficult time should be a model to all congregations. The same can be said of their presbytery's conduct, the moderator's input and concern and, at least to this point, Louisville's forbearance. There is only one thing that I read in the story that gives me any particular concern. That was the mention that Moderator Gray has not read "The Louisville Papers." In my opinion, she really should take a few minutes and read those documents, and she should request the other(s) that are still secret. She should take responsibility to be informed on this very serious matter. I believe these documents are a great thorn in the side of the NWAC and many other churches and parishioners. I think the moderator should not only read them, I think she ought to write about her reaction to them. I would recommend the Layman Online issue an open invitation for her to do so and offer her their promise to print her thoughts. Jack O'Brien, elder Pittsburgh, Pa. 'Coercive' strategies spawned in quest for peace, unity and purity January 23, 2007 Concerning Clifton Kirkpatrick's Advisory Opinion 20 (and others), I have only one comment. Who died and made him pope? Enough of the papal bull … er, that is, bulls! It's amazing that such coercive language and strategies are spawned by a supposed quest for the "peace, unity and purity of the church." Thank goodness it's only an "opinion." Randall Hardy The PCUSA ceased abiding in Christ a long time ago January 23, 2007 As I contemplate the condition of the PCUSA, my mind keeps returning to John 15:4-6:
I also think of Matthew 21:18-19:
Has God ordained the withering of the PCUSA? The evidence suggests that the PCUSA is withering away. Is this a mighty act of God? My mind also turns to I John 4:1-3:
If so, what should Christians do? Should we stand aside while God withers the PCUSA and throws it into the fire to be burned? George Hill, member First Presbyterian Church of Baton Rouge Port Allen, La. In 'Christ Jesus, our Lord' we cannot be separated January 23, 2007 I believe Meghan Foote [letter to the editor, posted Jan. 18, 2007] left out a key phrase. We cannot be separated from the love of God "in Christ Jesus our Lord." If we are in "Christ Jesus, our Lord," we cannot be separated. Pete Simpson Bloomington, Minn. Former Presbyterian church now a Buddhist temple January 23, 2007 The Presbytery of Tampa Bay sold Meadowlawn Presbyterian Church to a Buddhist temple. It sickens me each time I drive down the street and see all the statues on what used to be a Presbyterian church. Joan Hetzendorfer |
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