Presbyterians should review Scots Confession of 1560 a ‘wonderful, ageless confession’
Posted Thursday, October 27, 2011
I found Dr. Wiley’s comments in The Christian Post fascinating. In those comments he attributes a “lack of theological vigor” to the churches and goes on to relate how disappointed John Calvin would be at the arguing that is going on.
While I do turn to Calvin to be informed in the area of reformed thought, I find that the Scots Confession of 1560 better informs me as to Presbyterian thought. I would recommend that Wiley review the Scots Confession, especially Chapters 16 – The Kirk, 18 – The Notes by Which the True Kirk Shall Be Determined, 19 – The Authority of Scripture, and 20 – General Councils, Their Power, Authority and the Cause of Their Summoning. In fact I would recommend that all Presbyterians, of whatever denomination review this wonderful, ageless confession. Compare your denomination as it is today, to what John Knox and the other five Johns had in mind for the True Kirk.
Mike Schrowang
Statement is telling of the illogical theological landscape dominating PCUSA
Posted Thursday, October 27, 2011
The statement of Rev. Dr. Thomas P. Eggebeen [letter to the editor Oct. 26, 2011] that “there is no such thing as hating the sin and loving the sinner” is incredibly telling of his and the liberal mind set, and the illogical theological landscape increasingly dominating our denomination. If that is so, then it seems there are only two other choices: one can only hate the sin and sinner, or love the sinner and the sin.
In addition, Eggebeen’s prognostication and statement that “the PCUSA will sharpen and expand the Biblical vision of inclusivity and welcome” (emphasis added) is equally telling. If there is any doubt that the present possibility/allowability of gay ordination will stand as merely one of two options, then one doesn’t understand what Eggebeen is stating will come to pass. For those who harbor hope that somehow what is now only permissible will not become mandatory (all things being equal of course), this statement of what many of us know will come to pass in the PCUSA needs to be reexamined and taken to heart.
Rev. Steven L. Seng, pastor First Wyoming United Presbyterian Church, Torrington, WY
No one else has openly wished that the traditionalists would go away
Posted Thursday, October 27, 2011
I offer thanks to The Layman letters’ editor for printing Rev. Thomas Eggebeen’s impressive rant (Letters, Oct. 26). While I’ve read and corresponded with other liberal clergy in this column, none of them has so openly wished that the traditionalists would just simply go away and leave the PCUSA to its universalist destiny. Usually in these exchanges, writers like him express wishes for unity and appeal to all to please focus on the things we can agree upon, rather than constantly focusing on the issues that divide us.
But not so with Eggebeen! He rails away, covering all the bases by accusing us of jingoism, racism, sectionalism, anti-intellectualism, fundamentalism, misogyny and idolatry. Perhaps he also meant to add a tablespoon or two of “homophobia” to his “potage?” But the stew must have smelled pungent enough for his nose and he may simply have forgotten it. No matter. I added it in for myself (to taste) and stirred.
But then there was this exotic spice, added in parentheses: “… (there is no such thing as hating the sin and loving the sinner — that’s an example of pious muddled thinking that closes doors even as it prides itself on open doors).”
That was a stunner to me. Best I can discover, that common phrase appears nowhere in the Bible, although it’s certainly implied by so many of Jesus’ deeds and by his followers’ acts. No, that phrase comes down to us from St. Augustine, translated roughly as “With love for mankind and hatred of sins.” The phrase was paraphrased by Gandhi in his own autobiography as well. No matter the source, though, Eggebeen does not find this a compelling attitude. It makes me wonder how or even if he can minister to a card-carrying “homophobe” in his own pastoral duties?
Joe Duffus Gainesville, Va.
‘Hard to believe a minister could write such tripe’
Posted Thursday, October 27, 2011
In closing his diatribe to The Layman Rev. Thomas Eggebern [letter to the editor, posted Oct. 26, 2011] said “and baloney to you.” I was happy he so aptly described all that came before. Hard to believe a minister could write such tripe.
Fred Edwards
All homosexuals who are Christian don’t take the same paths
Posted Thursday, October 27, 2011
I appreciate very much what Steve Wagner shared in his letter [posted Oct. 24, 2011] regarding 10A and the struggles he has had with homosexuality. I as a homosexual can definitely relate. In fact I think he basically spoke some truth against the myth so many have that being gay is a choice. And they use that myth as a basis for condemning gays as though we all wake up one day and say “Yes, I think I will be a homosexual from now on.” Their thinking is that everyone is born straight to begin with, so if one deviates from that, then one is pretty much in rebellion against God. But not Steve, he told what is the truth in how homosexuality became part of him and I guess chose him.
Steve shared a lot of hurts that heterosexuals basically don’t understand. But God does fortunately.
Yet of course all homosexuals who are Christian don’t take the same paths or have the same conclusions. This should be no surprise as needless to say Christians in general aren’t all the same with their own life experiences or what is in their gut so to speak.
So what is in Earl’s gut who happens to be a liberal homosexual if labels are important? I’ve always felt that persons such as Steve have validity in sharing their struggles and walk with God. My belief is not one that is popular with other liberal folks, but that’s the way it is. So I do believe strongly that Steve needs to be affirmed in his own faith journey. None of us really knows what is inside the gut and don’t walk in his shoes. So I do wish Steve well and hope that he continues to have that inner peace I think he may have found.
So bottom line is the problem in the PCUSA had in the past has been the notion that one size fits all on certain issues such as homosexuality. And that failed miserably since for the most part people didn’t really walk the so-called official talk. Steve probably had more sanity in going to another body of faith than the rest of us who continued to stick with the insanity. Will 10A bring more sanity? I hope so. I think it does give room for all homosexuals and our faith communities who will have differing beliefs.
Earl C. Apel, member Mount Auburn Presbyterian Church, Cincinnati, Ohio
Most Southerners are Southern Baptists
Posted Thursday, October 27, 2011
It seems Rev. Dr. Thomas P. Eggebeen [letter to the editor, posted Oct. 26, 2011] has a low view of Southerners; in his letter to The Layman, he trashed them back into the Stone Age. According to him, they are the Pandora’s Box through which all the troubles of the world came. Actually, who could possibly like those loathsome Southerners? They marry their sisters, name all their sons “Bubba,” spend all their time listening to old Lynyrd Skynyrd and Allman Brothers records and sipping Jack Daniels. When Southerners move into the neighborhood, they fill their yard up with old cars, tractors and bass boats. They all speak with accents that remind one of the Beverly Hillbillies. Southerners have a terrible tendency to go to church and interpret the Bible literally (at least the ones that stay away from Jack Daniels).
I would point out to Eggebeen, however, that most Southerners are Southern Baptists. Down South the cliché is that a Presbyterian is a Baptist who wants to drink, but can’t afford to become an Episcopalian. The fact that Presbyterians are such a minority among Southerners suggests to me that Eggebeen should look elsewhere for the cause of his denomination’s troubles.
The PCUSA presbytery in that part of the South from which I come is second to none in embracing liberal theology and liberal causes.
I would further point out that when the UPCUSA and PCUS reunited back in 1983, the churches of the former PCUS had an eight year window during which they could leave and take their property with them. Most remained steadfastly loyal to the new united denomination during this period.
Larry Brown African Bible College, Lilongwe, Malawi
The PCUSA will sharpen and expand the Biblical vision of inclusivity and welcome
Posted Wednesday, October 26, 2011
Your newsletter has been a constant presence in my mail for many years, though I find most of what it offers offensive, dysfunctional and saturated with hubris.
With that said, blessings on the Fremont Church — they will continue on, as many have, with a slow drift into irrational fundamentalism, leaving behind the great Evangelical/Reformed tradition. In place of faith, will be money, David Barton’s/Rousas John Rushdoony’s weird reconstructionist vision of America, private schools, creationism, anti-intellectualism, a diminished role for women, and an abiding James Dobson hatred of LGBTQ people (there is no such thing as hating the sin and loving the sinner — that’s an example of pious muddled thinking that closes doors even as it prides itself on open doors).
I find it tragic that many Presbyterians have sold their Evangelical/Reformed soul for a mess of potage seasoned by Americanism, nationalistic illusions, a love of money and big buildings (even small conservative churches look to the big boys as if size mattered in the Kingdom of God), a world-denying version of “salvation,” faith without exegesis, tradition without thought and a bitter dogmatism driven by the Westminster Catechism (a 17th Century example of mostly where not to go).
I’ve been following The Layman since 1973, when I was a pastor in Altoona, Pa. I know well the contours of your soul, and it’s a jumbled and sad landscape.
Though I’ve sometimes been sympathetic to your original theological intentions, I’ve watched The Layman drift all the more into bitterness and darkness of spirit, while claiming to have the greater share of light in the PCUSA and assigning itself the task of guarding and traveling the higher road of faith, feeding the demons of fear and anger, aiming for a new denomination all along.
And, frankly, as someone from the north, I’m no longer saddened by southern tier churches leaving (formerly PCUS) — while the vision of reunion was worthy, and driven by some extraordinary leaders, too many of the Southern churches brought very little to the health of the church, often requiring the Northern church to walk on eggshells, cater to their theological sensibilities, parochial attitudes, the “spiritual nature of the church,” and, yes, the remnants of racism which remain unresolved in the South, and, yes, in all parts of our country.
Meanwhile, the PCUSA will sharpen and expand the Biblical vision of inclusivity and welcome. New congregations will be planted, folks brought to the Christ of the New Testament, and lives changed. Theologians like N.T. Wright are leading the way, along with Newbigin and his missional insights, and young-generation historians like John Fea and Darren Dochuk, not to mention Mark Noll.
It will be a better day for the PCUSA when the dust settles, and perhaps you’ll be happier, too, though the mindset of The Layman is always in need of an enemy, so it will be fascinating to watch who the next enemy will be. I doubt very much if you and gang will ever find happiness this side of heaven, and, frankly, if Matthew 25 has any bearing, it’s likely that unhappiness will plague your house even then.
I realize that my note is headed for the trash bin, or, if published, will be edited and then heralded by the “righteous” as just another example of liberal insanity and progressive blindness.
Well, so be it, and baloney to you.
BTW, if you want to remove my name from your mailing list, go ahead. But I bet you won’t. And as long as you send your nonsense to me, I’ll send my comments to you. Is that a deal?
Faithfully in Christ, and in always grateful for the Amazing Grace that saves, and looking for better days in the PCUSA, with windows and doors wide open to the gospel of faith, hope and love, because Christ is risen from the dead.
The Rev. Dr. Thomas P. Eggebeen, HR and Interim Pastor Calvary Presbyterian Church, Hawthorne, Calif.
‘They become their own god and justify their actions’
Posted Wednesday, October 26, 2011
I’ve read the responses to Professor Mark Achtemeier and completely agree with Rev. Parker Williamson and Rev. Andrew Hilla [letter to the editor, posted October 19, 2011]. There’s another sin being missed and that is the sin of taking internal issues to non-believers and the world as Paul wrote in I Corinthians 6.
Achtemeier posted his column in the Des Moines Register. Janet Edwards has written for The Huffington Post. Bruce Reyes-Chow joined with gay groups to condemn the ordination standards and to “apologize” for those standards.
We are specifically forbidden to take to the world our struggles within for several reasons. It only serves to hurt the Church and to hurt the cause of Christ. Achtemeier, Edwards and Reyes-Chow were self-serving in seeking praise from non-believers by joining them to condemn the Church and its standards that are found in the Bible.
This is the consequence of not being obedient to Scripture but it as a guide. They ignore adherence to other instructions from the Bible and their opinions and words are used to demand obedience and to be used in their perceived justice. In essence, they become their own god and justify their actions, no matter how sinful and destructive.
In I Corinthians 6, Paul warned about the destructive nature of sexual immorality. In celebration of such, other sins are manifested by Achtemeier, Edwards and Reyes-Chow.
I Corinthians 6:
If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church? I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? But instead, one brother takes another to court – and this in front of unbelievers!
The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
“I have the right to do anything,” you say – but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything” – but I will not be mastered by anything. You say, “Food for the stomach and the stomach for food, and God will destroy them both.” The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.” But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit
Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.
Charles Jeffery
Letter expresses the problem and solution in the PCUSA
Posted Tuesday, October 25, 2011
What a wonderful letter [by Steve Wagner, posted October 24, 2011] expressing exactly the problem and solution in the PCUSA denomination. It should be reprinted in every newspaper in our great nation! I want to stand with you, Brother! Well done. (1 Corinthians 8:3)
Fred Hoaglin, Trinity Church (EPC) Hilton Head Island, S.C.
Do you stand with false teachers or with the truly loving Father?
Posted Monday, October 24, 2011
My fellow Christians within Presbyterian Church (USA) congregations are confronted with a perplexing array of decisions since the passage of Amendment 10A, which The Layman has so faithfully sought to delineate. It is my prayer that I might offer some clarity amidst the confusion by sharing on a most personal level.
I am a 45 year old Christian man who came to the faith as a teenager in a PCUSA church. I have contended for as long as I can remember with same sex attraction, and for a number of years lived a homosexual lifestyle. In the past several years as I more earnestly sought God’s presence in my life, I have been lead to turn from this lifestyle and seek His will for how I shall live in a more humble way. Daily I have been praying, “Not mine, but Thine, will be done” and then have tried to follow His leading as best as I am able. The results have been often painful but always spectacular! I enjoy a dialog, an intimacy with our Almighty Three in One I had never before thought possible; He is breathing healing into the wounded places in me which once sought solace and identity in homosexuality. One thing has been necessary for me to receive this abundant outpouring of healing strength: obedience to His Word regarding sexual behavior.
I have been blessed as an adult to be in a church of another denomination in which no compromise on God’s Word concerning sex is considered; where others were not confused or passive regarding how to hate my sin and love me. Never once have I confused this hate and love extended to me, even while I practiced homosexuality. It was my discomfort, however, of having my behavior consistently disaffirmed while being embraced as a fellow sojourner which helped spur me to finally humble myself before Him and then listen and follow His voice.
I grieve deeply for those who struggle with same sex attraction in a PCUSA church amidst all the confusion and conflicting voices. I grieve even more for those who struggle in a PCUSA church that affirms their feelings of same sex attraction, or tells them that those Christians who are not silent regarding God’s true Word on sex are unloving or misguided. The false teachers who affirm homosexual practice in any context are not only steering the struggler away from the true healing power of Jesus found in obedience, but are also bringing down a profound spiritual deception over their entire flock.
Those Christians who mistakenly believe the loving response is to accept or silently “bear with” homosexual practice – whether intentionally or not– reject the likes of me and reject the fullness of God’s grace. Those Christians who, with clarity and courage, unashamedly stand upon God’s clear Word concerning sexual purity extend truest mercy and a more unselfish love to me and others.
Ask yourself: do I stand– in any way– with false teachers as I remain in my congregation to avoid personal discomfort? Or do I stand with the truly loving Father who longs to shower blessing on those who obey by upholding His Word? May our Lord in His wisdom guide each in how to best answer these questions within your particular congregation.
May we each seek to live the words of Paul found in Philippians 3:8-11. Steve Wagner Westmont, Ill.
Correction to article
Posted Monday, October 24, 2011
I am grateful for your efforts to describe the impact that the recent approval of Amendment 10A is having on the PCUSA’s global relationships.
Having said that, please permit me to point out a significant error contained in a quotation attributed to me in the article “PCUSA international ties strained” on page 13 of the October 2011 issue of The Layman. The error completely misconstrues my meaning.
What I actually said, misquoted in the article’s final paragraph, was this: “At a time when many of our global partners feel the PCUSA has turned away from them, you do NOT have to turn away from them.”
To allow the misstatement to stand would be an embarrassment to me. Thank you for providing your readers with the accurate quotation. Rob Weingartner
Possible red flags in the General Assembly Committee on Representation’s draft
Posted Friday, October 21, 2011
As a commissioner to the 219th General Assembly, I recently received a survey to ask about the GA Committee on Representation. Questions ranged from their performance to communication and finally to feedback on a possible new description of their work, which was to be based on the new Form of Government (nFOG). Here is the draft statement:
The General Assembly Committee on Representation engages synods and the councils and entities of the national church on their procedures and mechanisms for promoting and reviewing their implementation of the church’s commitment to inclusiveness and representation. This work is in partnership with councils’ efforts in giving full expression to the rich diversity of the church’s membership and providing for full participation and access to representation in decision-making and employment practices. In so doing, the General Assembly Committee on Representation promotes and reviews the councils’ implementation of the church’s commitment to inclusiveness and representation, advises the councils of the church regarding the implementation of principles of unity and diversity, advocates for diversity in leadership, and consults with the councils on the employment of personnel, in accordance with the principles of unity and diversity.“Implementation of the church’s commitment to inclusiveness and representation.” Does anyone else see the red flags I see there? This very well could be the first step toward “Kenyonization.” The first step is opening the door, and the second step is being forced through it. How many of us will it force out? Rev. Carolyn Poteet, associate pastor First Presbyterian Church, Hendersonville, N.C.
Letter is an expression the orthodox faith of the true Church of God
Posted Friday, October 21, 2011
I deeply appreciate and agree with the letter of Rev. Hector Reynoso. It is a beautiful letter and expression of his and the orthodox faith of the true Church of God.
Rev. Dr Allen Ruscito
My hope is that Dubuque will continue to be a Biblically grounded seminary
Posted Friday, October 21, 2011
In terms of Rev. Hilla’s announcement [letter to the editor, posted 10/19/11] that FPC, Paullina, Iowa will no longer support Dubuque Seminary because of Dr. Achtemeier’s stance on gay ordination, etc., it should be noted that Achtemeier is no longer on faculty there. I got my information from Dr. Bradley Longfield, seminary dean. My hope is that this means Dubuque will continue to be a Biblically grounded seminary and that churches and individuals can feel comfortable supporting it.
Rev. Steven L. Seng, pastor (2001 UDTS graduate) First Presbyterian Church, Torrington, WY
Trying to revive a rotting tree at its core is fantasy
Posted Friday, October 21, 2011
Wood rots from the inside out, not from the outside in. That’s why rotting trees standing in the forest are often hollowed out hulks around layers of still living rings. There’s no “living heart” of these trees, as such. That’s why girthing a tree will kill it. Trying to revive a rotting tree at its core is fantasy.
Gary Starkey