By Alexander Griswold, The Federalist
By now, we’ve all heard the refrain that U.S. churches need liberalize their teachings on sexuality and homosexuality or rapidly decline. The logic behind the argument is simple: more and more Americans are embracing homosexuality and same-sex marriage, including growing numbers of religious Millennials. So long as churches remain the face of opposition to gay marriage, those churches will shrink into irrelevancy when gay marriage (inevitably, we are told) becomes a settled political issue.
These arguments often see church acceptance of homosexuality as a carrot as well as a stick. It isn’t so much that denouncing homosexuality will drive people away from church, but that embracing it will also lead people into church. LGBT individuals and their supporters, many of whom hold a dim view of religion after a decades-long culture war, will reconsider church if denominations remove their restrictions on gay marriage and ordination.
But a number of Christian denominations have already taken significant steps towards liberalizing their stances on homosexuality and marriage, and the evidence so far seems to indicate that affirming homosexuality is hardly a cure for membership woes. On the contrary, every major American church that has taken steps towards liberalization of sexual issues has seen a steep decline in membership.
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The dirty little secret that the liberal denominations know in their heart, but cannot summons the courage to admit to themselves is that on a number of issues, abortion, Israel, energy policy, tax policy, human sexuality, they have far, far more in common with pagans, secularists, humanist, the “none of the above” than with normative or historical Christianity. They find home and comfort with the secularists who embrace a godless universe, the culture of death, and a world void of hope, than those who proclaim the Good News.
Witness the ongoing extermination, slaughter of Christians in the Middle East. From the ECUSA, PCUSA, UU, UCC, the usual suspects, the expected letters of protest. But their time. treasure and energy is solely directed at Israel as the single source of all evil, and their infatuation with all things Palestinian. Dare I say anti-Semitic as well. Good luck building a church or denomination with that message. No wonder people stay home. The liberals are spent, bankrupt of ideas or hope. They slowly fade into the nothingness and void they so fondly embrace.
PC(USA) Presbyterians have been fooling themselves for decades into believing that mimicking trends in the secular culture is the route to missional effectiveness. I wholeheartedly support the full inclusion of women in pastoral and ordained office but the PC(USA) just celebrated the 40th anniversary of the ordination of the first woman and bringing the women’s rights movement into the church hasn’t done a thing to staunch the decline.
speaking as a ‘career girl’ born and raised presbyterian who fell for all of this rubbish, all the way to a wall street career and multiple worthless pieces of paper from esteemed secular universities….it’s a lie, all of it, including the ordination of women. if Jesus wanted female priests he would have included his own mother at the Last Supper, not. He doesn’t make mistakes. the warning is sometime between now and the end of this year, Jesus announced it this weekend. there’s precious little time left.
Are you embarassed by Hulda, Anna, and the daughters of Phillip? Are you ashamed of Pheobe and Priscilla?
it never fails, anytime louisville makes one of its assinine pronouncements about something they know nothing about, my phone lights up, then I’m forced trying to talk people down. Personally I’m thinking of makeing scarry mask of gradye parsons with little horns on it for halloween so he can get used to seeing the crowd he’ll be spending eternity with. All the trouble we are now facing can be laid at the feet of louisville, while ther’re laughing all the way to the bank.
not interested in cross talk.
Every liberal that I know personally doesn’t even go to church.
I can’t figure out why these diehard liberals took over the Mainline churches.
What would a liberal who has no regard for the unborn or Isreal even want to be affiliated with a Christian church?
amen
@ Peter Gregory. Much of the first paragraph falls in the range from debatable to questionable to silly, and leaning toward the latter. “Normative” Christianity would be difficult to define objectively, but here appears to be whatever viewpoint the writer agrees with. “Historical” Christianity is problematic, since there is much that has been embraced in the history of the church that we now view as antithetical to the gospel and is also rejected by those humanists and secularists (I doubt that the writer has a handle on what “pagan” might really mean). Even then, “historical” as applied to this list of issues is a bit over the top.
1. Even on abortion, for good or ill the nuanced approach of mainstream protestants today is arguably somewhat closer to historical Christianity, at least historical Christianity before the later 19th century. The writer is correct if “normative” is defined by the world leadership of the various forms of Christianity, given the position of the RC church. Things are a little more complicated and less well understood when the beliefs of individual Christians are considered.
2. I do not know how one would speak of the “historical” view of Israel, a nation that did not exist before the middle of the 20th century. Regarding “normative,” the very mild approach of the PCUSA (consciously not endorsing BDS, among other things) is much closer to the position of Pope Francis than is the typical Layman supporter. Casual use of the term “anti-Semitic” is on the one hand absurd, here apparently meaning anything that AIPAC or Likud does not like (by Gregory’s standard J-street is anti-Semitic), and on the other ironic, given the prevalence of anti-Semitism in “historic” Christianity.
3. Regarding energy policy and tax policy and “historic Christianity,” that is so silly that no reply is even merited. “Normative” Christianity – since the position of the RC Church is similar to mainstream protestantism, the conclusion is obvious. For individuals rather than the official church position, a majority of world Christians are among the poor by US standards, and live in places where individual energy consumption is a small fraction of the US.
4. Perhaps the writer is closest to the mark on human sexuality. Regarding LGBT people, historically both Christian and non-Christian have been either in denial or in the dark. Normative- perhaps world-side that may be true, but at least in the US and on an individual (non-institutional) level, mainstream protestants and Catholics both support gay marriage, at about the same level. Otherwise on non-LGBT issues, attitudes about sexuality vary a great deal around the world and “normative” would be difficult to tie down.
Did my question strike a nerve with you?
Every denomination that has ordained women has gone on to ordain homosexuals.
Patrick,
not at all, your comment didn’t bother me one bit, i had no earthly idea what you were talking about. i later looked up those ladies, none of their stories applied to my comment.
God generally doesn’t call highly educated souls, meaning those who are educated in spiritual matters, those who think they are theologically wise.
my suggestion is to prepare, we’ve got four months maximum until the warning. you might want to do some research yourself if you have no idea what that i’m talking about.
The general narrative of the PCUSA goes something like this. The greatest virtues one can have about themselves, be it clergy, layman, bureaucrat is unconditional acceptability to all places, people and things. Pluralism and diversity are sacramental values above all others. In essence love is all you need.
So the organization doubles-down on stuff like the “1001 new communities”. which is fraud and bogus to start with, and other programs that have the concept that all you need to do to is make Jesus a nice guy, your best buddy, sort of do away with things like confession, doctrine or other historic symbols of unity and everybody from the disaffected millennial, to the tenured liberal arts professor, to the punked- out I hate church crowed, to the none of the above agnostics, to hostile secularists will say all at once. “lets go to the church”! And not just any church, but the loving, affirming and accepting PCUSA church next door. Forgetting that the UCCs/UU/Quakers have had the religious liberal corner covered very well for over 300 years, and if those folks wanted to go to church, they would have done so. Or just go the that New Age start up down the street-sorry 1001 new commutes-I repeat myself.
Above and beyond that the organizational/institutional PCUSA does not care about you, your church, your ministry. They see you as a cash-cow and income stream to be milked for their purposes. You serve no other purpose. They care about things, property, money over people. Hence godless and pagan. And this is why they die. Their culture is death and they affirm no greater value than themselves and their own logic and reason.
PC-USA is a gnostic church practicing a gnostic religion.
Normative, historical…or….biblical? As laid out in the Epistles? I think we understand what type of Christianity the writer is getting at.
Israel clearly did exist before the 20th century…..It is written about all through scripture.
Ridiculous
What is meant by “normal” sexuality is not hard for anyone to tie down…..no pun intended.
The greatest heresy of our time is to exchange truth for convenience. The greatest heresy of the evangelical church is to treat heretics as if they are just misguided and we need to look at things their way. Our greatest need today is to stand on God’s Word even if it is convenient.
The Presbyterian Church of Downtown Zanesville, Ohio has folded .. It is for sale by the Presbytery Members of that church wanted to keep the bells or chimes of the church .. Setting them aside in the deal and the Presbytery had the unmitigated gall and refused… PCUSA has no limit to its wrath!
In these types of blogs the discussion can go many different ways, as to old church PC church in Zanesville OH.
It must remembered the Presbytery, much a RC diocese, has no vested interest in anything related to ministry presence, mission, or even simple Christian virtue in an episcopal concept of church property. Its only task in such matters is to get the best sale price, not for the benefit of those with vested interest in the former church, but themselves and their own agenda’s. Never confuse the local church or members self-interest with that of COM, the EP or Presbytery. Two totally separate agenda and factions to please. They are not your friends or buddy, the sooner one comes to terms with that, the more liberating that knowledge provides and clarity of purpose in conflicted situations.
I can understand the hierarchy wanting to save the bells and chimes………satan can use them somewhere else.
I’m curious if they’re also laying claim to the bibles.
Ahh yes .. Re: Zanesville pres church … Perhaps the presbytery will use their “profit” in the sale to build a chapel for same sex marriage in Muskingum County!